Take me with you - Talks with Amanda Knox in prison

Take me with you - Talks with Amanda Knox in prison

Postby Sarah » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:45 pm

Take me with you - Talks with Amanda Knox in prison
by Rocco Girlanda


Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Take-you-Amanda-p ... Descending


Amazon UK

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Take-you-Talks- ... 918&sr=1-7
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BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby Sarah » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:07 pm

Take me with you - Talks with Amanda Knox in prison
by Rocco Girlanda
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:58 pm

I've read this book in Italian since it is my mothertongue and also the only serious book published in Italian about this case or about Amanda Knox (the notorious "Amanda e gli Altri", sued by Knox, was not exactly an attempt to serene and detached analysys of the characters involved).

Rocco Girlanda is an Italian MP, president of the Italy-Usa Foundation who met Knox for the first time in the Capanne prison after the conviction verdict in the first trial. Initially he went there to try to ease the tension created by that verdict between Italy and Usa and most probably he didn't intend to meet Knox thereafter or at least not many times, but in that first meeting he started to develop an interest in Knox as a person and he met her (if I remember correctly) about twenty times only before publishing this book and I suppose many times after, since he was present also in the evening when she left Capanne for good.

The book is partly a sort of synthesis of some of the dialogues he and his Secretary, Corrado Maria Daclon, had with Amanda for about a year during the aforementioned visits, and partly a description of the activities of the Italy-USA Foundation and of the Capanne Prison itself with the people (inmates and guards) living there.

Let's say that the real dialogues printed in the book are not very many: taken by themselves could maybe fill 30 pages at most, but by Girlanda's own admission, he put in the book only those parts that he considered to be not too much private or personal.
There aren't very significative or extended dialogues reported, but all in all the book is important since it presents an image of Amanda in deep contrast with the public perception of her which was rampant during the four years she was behind bars.
She is represented in a very sympathetic light (and Girlanda has been pounded for this, in Italy and abroad) as an intelligent and cultivated young woman with deep literary and artistic interests, who doesn't like the kind of "celebrity" she has but who would like to be a writer one day.
Above all she appears warm and capable of friendship and affection, something not so obvious to many, considering all the stereotypes that surrounded her person.
Amanda speaks of her family and friends, about what she does in prison and what she'd like to do once outside, even little things as going finally to visit Gubbio, where she should have gone with Raffaele that fateful November 2nd 2007, as she expressly says with a vein of sadness, and according to Girlanda that is also the "first and only time that I heard the name of Meredith from Amanda's voice". He makes no further comment about this, he just takes note.
Girlanda is openly sympathetic to Amanda and he is clearly somehow fascinated by her, to the point of admitting having had dreams (innocent ones) about her, and sincerely he was rather bold in saying this, since it brought him many salacious comments, obviously from readers and critics not very fond of Amanda.
Towards the end of the book Girlanda openly declares Amanda "a friend of mine" and that he "can't imagine or believe that this girl was able to do what she has been accused of".

Even if this book is certainly not very dazzling under a purely literary point of view and it directly let Amanda speak or speaks about Amanda for only maybe half of its length, nevertheless it is a rare peek inside Amanda Knox as a person, an honest and genuine one as much as it is allowed to the common bystander and reader and so I advise you all to read it.

Post Scriptum: The book contains a short novel and two short poems written by Amanda: they are all interesting and I found particularly striking the second poem, the one at the end of the volume. I think that Amanda has really the potential to have one day a fame coming from her own creations and not from something she didn't do.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:54 pm

Ive been reading this book. One question I have is do you think it helped (or possibly hurt) Amanda as far as public opinion in Italy? Did many in Italy read this book? Was it the book well know by the Italian public even those that didn't read it.

I quoted section from the photographer story in a comment on Frank's blog. The part about her life being a series of photographs that if shuffled she would be a different person.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:02 pm

Hi sflicker, I 've read your post in Frank's blog and I've found the english version better written than the Italian one, so I suppose it was originally written in english, as should be after all natural: she may have acquired a good command of everyday Italian, but to reach literary quality...hey most Italians don't reach that level in their whole life! :D

About the effect of the book on public opinion in Italy... well for short I think it had rather little impact since it wasn't really a bestseller and it was clear from the beginning that it was pro Amanda, so it was mostly bought by innocentisti.

It is possible that a certain number of undecided or doubtful people bought it and that they were most probably swept to the pro Amanda side, since I think it gives a simple but warm and human view of her, but we're talking about maybe 1000-2000 people at the very best.

Surely it didn't harm Amanda: in Italy the guilters (or better yet those who simply don't like her even if may admit that "perhaps" she didn't do that) simply said that Amanda had seduced another mature man, joked a bit about Girlanda's dreams and went on.

P.S.
The shuffled photos analogy made me think for a moment if she wasn't perhaps indirectly and almost subconsciously suggesting that her fate and Meredith's could have been interchangeable, should a few little things have been shuffled by Destiny.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:09 pm

Thanks for the response. Yes I'm sure she was thinking about Destiny/Fate at least subconsciously. Maybe if events happened in different order or differently she wouldn't have been blamed. But her fate being switch with Meredith's certainly came to her mind as well.

I'm curious what public opinion in general on the case is like in Italy. And also how it changed over time. Perhaps few even care now with so many others issues out there.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby geebee2 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:31 pm

roteoctober wrote:
About the effect of the book on public opinion in Italy... well for short I think it had rather little impact since it wasn't really a bestseller and it was clear from the beginning that it was pro Amanda, so it was mostly bought by innocentisti.



I think one shouldn't under-estimate the effect.

Ok, not many people would have read the book, but it's existence may have caused some to stop and think.

When you have almost nothing, anything that helps your case is significant.

Perhaps for example judge Hellman was aware of it, and it may have helped him to stop and think clearly.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:05 pm

@ geebee2

Yes, it's always possible that maybe the jurors or the judge, knowing who they were going to have in their trial, decided to read the only Italian book on the subject.

If that happened, this was really a very influential book for Amanda :D


@sflicker

I tried to post a very long resume of the case perception in Italy but there was an error (browser or server I don't know) and it went all lost (more than an hour of typing lost)...I'll try again, maybe in this weekend.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby Jstanz » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:47 am

roteoctober wrote:@ geebee2

Yes, it's always possible that maybe the jurors or the judge, knowing who they were going to have in their trial, decided to read the only Italian book on the subject.

If that happened, this was really a very influential book for Amanda :D


@sflicker

I tried to post a very long resume of the case perception in Italy but there was an error (browser or server I don't know) and it went all lost (more than an hour of typing lost)...I'll try again, maybe in this weekend.


:( Keep copying this time....
All my grammar and spelling mistakes are the result of auto-correct. If auto-correct is not used here, I still blame it.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:14 pm

Here I'm with my analysis of the perception of the MK case in Italy.
I've a bit of time now, so I'll expand it a little bit and I think it would be worth a
separate topic, but let's start this way.

First a personal recollection: my personal relationship with this case.

I perfectly remember when it erupted in the early days of november 2007 and I still have clear
memories of the famous kisses between AK e RS outside the cottage, then I remember their arrest and
later when Lumumba was exonerated.
I clearly remember that when he was cleared I thought that Knox was a real "stronza" (which literally
means "piece of shit" but in truth has a more complex and variable meaning) and had to be clearly
guilty, since she had accused an innocent man.
About the sex game theory, well I bought it, thinking that if the police made such allegations, they certainly
had serious evidence about it (I never bought the satanic addon, but at the time I thought that it was
media exaggeration).
I vaguely remember Guede's arrest: I had already moved on, since I've never been interested in
"cronaca nera" or black chronicle as we in Italy call reporting about murders.
The next flash of memory is about AK appearance at the preliminary hearing in september 2008 in
the now famous white blouse attire, the one in the iconic photo with the guards at both sides.
I was with friends watching TV and I remember saying aloud (rare thing for me) "Wow, that girl is really
beautiful." and thinking "Sadly she is also a murderess."
In that same september 2008 my father died, so for about a year I had other things to think about, like
inheritance issues, a new house to buy and so on, and I didn't follow the first trial at all.
I just remember when they where convicted on December 5th 2009: that date is also my sister birthday and I was
with her, we said each other "So they were really guilty." with a vein of sadness.
Then a year and a half passed and about may-june last year I saw on TV the footage with the sloppy procedure
of evidence recollection at the cottage, with a comment showing a certain criticism towards the prosecution.
Once the summer was over, in september, I started to read something on the newspapers and then decided to find
more documentation on the Internet and stumbled upon IIP and PerugiaShock, which quickly changed my mind.
I also read Candace Dempsey's blog on SeattlePI.
I visited TJMK too, but briefly, since I found it inconsistent and even a bit unpleasant to read.

That for my personal story.

Now a look at the italian perception.

We need a preamble: Italian law says you are innocent up to the third level of judgement (the SC or Corte di Cassazione),
common lore says you are guilty or are at the very least "somehow involved" as soon as you are described as a suspect on TV.
And if we are talking of murder, not even acquittal at all three levels of judgement will really and definitively clear you
in face of the common people.
The fact is that formally TV programs always pay lip service to the "innocent until proved guilty" principle, but then, through
the words they use, the images they use, the tones they use in their words, the opposite is almost always true.
So, if you are even only suspected, the smearing machine starts (often if not always with infos coming directly from the prosecution)
and its effects, especially if the time spent in smearing you is long, especially if the crime is infamous, can never be reversed, even
with 100 acquittals.
In my memory there has been only exception to this rule and concerned a well known TV anchorman in the 80s: he had been accused of being associated with Camorra (Naples equivalent of sicilian Mafia) and spent in jail 3,5 years and was acquitted in appeal and then by the SC, which confirmed that the allegations against him were false. In truth he was considered a martyr because he died (of cancer) a year later.
In any case no action was taken against those PMs who had made those allegations...

After this wonderful preamble you can imagine what the image of AK (RS was an attachment, as Giulia Bongiorno said) was in Italy: on her the smearing machine worked full time and worldwide with words particularly (and willfully) offensive to a woman, for a prolonged time and with much amplitude.

Amanda Knox was nominated TV personality of the year in 2008, which means she (or better her alterego known elsewhere as FoxyKnoxy) was continuously on TV.

Try to read this through an automatic translator:

http://extraneoallamassa.splinder.com/p ... manda-knox

it was written in 2008 by the most renowned italian TV critic, Aldo Grasso, and is full of speculations about "volcano with a icy top", "algid beauty", "Hitchcock character" and so on ... these were the elaborations made on a girl who was in jail and could say almost nothing: that's the same thing for all those wrongly accused and put in jail, if their supposed crime is important enough for the smearing machine to take notice.

What was the common opinion about Amanda you can judge from this 2008 article of the Italian newspaper "La Nazione":

http://qn.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2008/0 ... ioni.shtml

the article all in all was positive, the journalist was taken by surprise by the real Amanda vs FoxyKnoxy; the point is in the comments: they are vicious, they insult even the journalist and define Amanda "human rubbish".

The conviction in the 2009 trial just confirmed the guilty perception in all those (that is 99% of the people) who didn't research the case by themselves.
Since to find pro Amanda sources you had to read English and surf the web, may be the ratio was 99,9% of the people.

The perception changed more significantly during the appeal: more well known voices in the newspapers and magazines started to shift towards innocentismo, especially after the Conti-Vecchiotti Report and by the time of the acquittal let's say a 30% (maybe less) of the people in Italy were real innocentisti, a 30% remained guilters and a 40% more or less "doubters", that is people who say "well maybe they didn't kill but they certainly know something" or "there is not enough evidence but who knows what's the truth".

All this comes from lack of a real effort at self documentation, but again, who really studied the case? Maybe 1%, maybe 1 out of 1000 people.

There are haters, especially on Facebook, but numerically they are a little thing. What they don't achieve in numbers, they compensate with the intensity of their hatred: wishing death to AK and RS is common currency there.

This said, I think that with the not too prosperous future waiting Italy in the next years, the issue will fade into oblivion for what concerns the masses: in 2012 we will surely have a lot of mass demonstrations concerning taxes, pensions, jobs and so on, but certainly not about AK and RS in front of the SC. Stay assured.

A note concerning AK and RS as they are viewed as individuals.

Amanda really never recovered from being viewed as calculative, too shrewd, manipulative, too easy with sex (so to speak) and so on and she being an American didn't help: I think I never heard a really positive commentary made about her in Italy in the press or TV outside Girlanda's book, which is noteworthy for this reason.
Usually women are more critical than men and the reason seems rather obvious.
She suffered being very far from the italian standard for a good girl (brava ragazza).
In short Amanda likes Italy much more than Italy likes Amanda.

Raffaele is a different thing, aside from hard core guilters who consider him false, liar, druggy and so on, most people ignored him or considered him plagiarized by Amanda, so at the very worst a minor culprit and the hatred against him never reached the all time high that reached against Amanda.
Since he has (for now at least) to live in Italy, this is good for him: he can more or less live undisturbed, while Amanda could have serious troubles living in Italy.

And finally my personal evaluation about them.

All in all I have a rather high opinion of Amanda, probably the fact she is an attractive young woman has a role in it, but I must say that I always admired her strong personality and her force of will, even when I thought she was guilty. Some say that Italians don't like her because she was smiling too much during the trials while here in italy one expect women (and especially girls) under trial to cry a lot, especially if innocent. I instead always liked that sort of self assurance, that sort of straightforwardness.
Hell, here we have a girl who at 20 found herself accused of murder in a foreign country 9000 km from home, with continuous exposure of her private life on world media, with the worst insults pouring on her inside and outside of tribunals and who spent 4 years in jail for nothing and she kept firm, she kept thinking to her projects, to have a life beyond all that. That's amazing and deserves admiration. I think that at least 9 out of 10 girls of her age in that situation would have developed serious depression, sought refuge in pharmaceuticals (which abound in prison) or developed a seething rage against the whole world.
That's why I really like Amanda.

Raffaele is someone I at least partially identify with: we are both IT geeks and I perfectly understand his shyness, we both lost our mothers when young, we are both not natural born socializers, the only difference being that I belong to that type of shy people who react to their shyness becoming aggressive when needed in order to compensate, he doesn't.
He is a man who has suffered a lot (and still suffers) for an impossible love.
He came from no previous history with women and literally from afternoon to evening he found himself in bed with a beautiful girl without probably not even fully understanding what was happening.
I'm sure he loved Amanda more than she loved him, above all he thought he had found the woman of his life and realistically this Amanda would have probably never been, in any case.
Just because of the newly met girlfriend he found himself involved in all that.
He refused to dissociate from Amanda early on, when probably he could have escaped much if not all of this story and certainly he did so out of love.
During the final appeals in front of the court Amanda thanked Raffaele admitting she owes him her life ("had I been there, I'd be dead, like her, but I wasn't there, I was at Raffaele's") but hers was a reference to the past ("and thankfully there was Raffaele, IN THAT MOMENT he was everything for me"), while Raffaele in his speech evokes the night of November 1st 2007 with elegiac tones ("I was in an idyllic state, I was about to graduate and I had just met Amanda, a beautiful, joyful, sweet girl and
that was the first weekend we were going to spend together in tenderness") which are verbally at the past but that he still lives thinking to what could have been.
So now Raffaele (and it has been clearly seen in the most touching moment of his interview on the Italian TV) at a rational level perfectly knows it's all over and wishes Amanda all the happiness in the world, but exactly in the way he says that, you can understand that deep inside himself, he is still in love.
Those haters at TJMK who fantasize about Sollecito breaking, out of jealousy or something else, and revealing "secrets", don't understand a fundamental thing: even should they be correct about the "secrets" (which they are not), Raffaele wouldn't betray Amanda in one hundred years.
That's why I like Raffaele: he is a romantic hero.

Maybe I've written the longest post in the forum, if it is so, I expect a prize. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby Jstanz » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:33 pm

roteoctober - I'm not going to direct quote (due to the length ;0)) but yours was a wonderful post! Thanks!
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby geebee2 » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:51 pm

roteoctober

Yes, that's a great post.

I also have a personal angle here. I'm a computer geek, a bit like Raffaele.

When I was young (30 years ago), I briefly met an American girl. It was on a train journey to Paris.
We were both on vacation. She had a mountain bike, I was hiking.
We spent the night together, talking and sleeping in a park just by the Eiffel tower.
( I should say this was quite innocent - I was just looking out for her).
The next day we parted and went our separate ways.
A few years later I was in California working, and called her, we arranged to meet.
But she never showed up. I understood. She was an exotic creature, not for me.
I still have a photograph somewhere. It's a fond memory for me of my youth.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby Dougm » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:27 pm

Great post, roteoctober! I agree with everything you said about Amanda and Raffaele, and appreciate the insight into the views of people in Italy. Thanks a bunch!
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:41 pm

Excellent post, on a personal note, the romantic side of me was hoping Raffaele would move to Seattle to be with Amanda. That would have been the Hollywood ending. There were certainly reports that this might have been a possibility. I totally agree with your view of both Raffaele and Amanda. I'm an IT geek like yourself and Raffaele.

common lore says you are guilty or are at the very least "somehow involved" as soon as you are described as a suspect on TV.

This is probably true in American as well especially if the suspect is on the Nancy Grace show.

Usually women are more critical than men and the reason seems rather obvious.
She suffered being very far from the italian standard for a good girl (brava ragazza).


In trying to answer my questions on Italian perceptions (your does this wonderfully) I found poll of university students in Rome taken the day before the appeal verdict. Roughly 80% of girls thought she was guilty and roughly 80% of boys thought she was innocent. I also found an article an Italian girls living in Canada (Ginas as the author calls them) that are supercritical of other women. With statements like

It isn’t true that Eskimos have a hundred names for snow, but Italians have almost as many for “slut.


And

“ginas” blabbering about how they couldn’t help Mamma make the spaghetti sauce that week because they had their periods and it would give the family the evil eye


Here is the article I apologize if it's title is offensive, remember it's about Italians living in Canada not Italy but some cultural aspects may be common.
http://takimag.com/article/why_i_hate_italians/print#axzz1dYhDgzoz

. That's amazing and deserves admiration. I think that at least 9 out of 10 girls of her age in that situation would have developed serious depression, sought refuge in pharmaceuticals (which abound in prison) or developed a seething rage against the whole world.


There is another book out called "Walking with Amanda" that was written by a woman that was a prisoner with Amanda and the author confirms that Amanda was pressured by the guards to take drugs but she refused. Given time I'll try and write a summary of this book in the future. It does paint a very good picture of Amanda, along with a very dim view of Italian prisons. The author freely admits to both as being motivations for writing the book.

Thanks again for your excellent post.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:55 am

Thanks all for your appeciation.

@geebee2

I too was in Paris for a semester after graduation (it was post doc, not Erasmus) but unfortunately I didn't meet any American girl with a passion for hiking or something like that. :lol:
Jokes aside, I understand how that event in your personal life may have shaped indirectly your point of view about AK & RS and especially their personal relationship: it is normal hearing an echo of our experiences in the lives of the others. And that's why great movies, great novels and great plays are able to stir our feelings.

@sflicker

There will not be any Hollywood ending: those rumors are just "paparazzi noise", more or less like the "cat-burglar costume".
Don't be too sad about that: usually Hollywood is not the best art available (sorry, Americans ;) ) and this story deserves something more: if there were a Shakespeare still around, he could create something midrange between Romeo and Juliet and Much Ado About Nothing.
Even without Shakespeare, I hope that in due time some noteworthy movie will emerge but probably not very soon: time is needed to catch the right perspective.
Who knows, maybe one day it could even be an Italian movie!
Well, maybe.
Anyway consider this (I hope Raffaele will arrive one day to the same conclusion): without this tragedy nowadays AK e RS would live 9000 km away without probably any connection remaining between them, their former love long forgotten (maybe a bit less by Raffaele); instead in this life they'll share a permanent bond, a common shared harsh experience that will inform their whole lives and grant mutual affection.
Of course I'm sure all those involved would rather prefer that MK never died, that prison and trials were never there, but since all that did happen, this is the only happy ending remaing to us and them all.

I'm aware about the other book you quoted, if I'll find it, I'll read it with interest.

About "ginas": I've read the article and it seems perfectly matched to what we in Italy call "truzzi" or "tamarri", that is the Jersey Shore kind of boys and girls.
You see, even if Italy is much smaller than the U.S., there is as much difference between our regions as between American states.
I don't know how a peculiar Seattleite as Amanda would have been considered in the deep South or in the backwaters of the Midwest: maybe her behaviour would have seemed strange there too.

Anyway all this stuff of crying and so on, I never fully understood it...I have my personal opinion about what Giobbi said and maybe I'll open a topic on that, but in any case, Perugia is not Sicily: my father was from a part of Tuscany near Arezzo which is nearer to Perugia than to Florence, I have relatives there and they have a rather mocking way of reacting to death, and certainly they don't expect you to cry for days, put on a black veil and so on...

Anyhow, I'm again writing too much...it will be for another occasion. :lol:

One last thing SFLICKER: since you have the english version of Girlanda's book, could you please post here the english version of the second poem from Amanda, the one at end of the book: in Italian it sounds beautiful, but since it was most probably originally written in English, I'd like to read it in its original form.

Thank You
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:56 am

Okay roteoctober here is the English version of the poem. I am typing it by hand as I'm not sure if I can copy and paste from Kindle.
Hopefully no typing mistakes.

-------------

Stay with me a little longer, on, my eyes
To see the quiet settling like snow
Let our willing ears tell us the lies
That allow us the illusion of being alone

Our heartbeat is the last flickering of the flame
That burned throughout the day in longing
The shadows on the walls play us a game
Hinting at the place where we are belonging

Don't blink out at the ending of the day
When it's always promised us another
Stay with me and prolong our dream
In the penumbra we will dream of its younger brother

Dreams with eyes open are like dreams
With the eyes shut when where you are
Your heart bursts forth at the seams
Dreaming of what you miss and what you life for

So stay with me a little longer, my eyes
And help me break this fragile, grey evening
In the tiles of a mosaic that tries
To reconstruct our memories of living.

Amanda Knox

Published in "Take Me With You - Talks with Amanda Knox in Prison" by Rocco Girlanda
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby Teddy » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:25 am

Thanks for that mega-post roteoctober. From everything I've seen I agree entirely with how Italian society views AK and RS. Thanks.
Amanda Knox: "According to Mignini, we found Meredith at the villa and said, Hey, that stupid bitch. Let’s show Meredith. Let’s get her to play a sex game. I was horrified. Who thinks like that?".... indeed, who thinks like that?
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby MustBeQuantum » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:35 am

Remarkably sophisticated poem -- very enjoyable. Since I live with young people that age, even the brightest of them can be remarkably trite with their youth.

I am leaning toward seeing RS as heroic in his persistence.

The vicious irony of the "British Virgins" is that any boyfriends any of them could possibly get are nowhere close to the prize that AK was involved with -- and may explain some of the poisonous gossip from the UK group. Envy is an ugly emotion and does no honor to either the victim or the so-called "friends" of the victim.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:54 am

I think even in Seattle some of Amanda's behavior would seem strange. I've never been in Seattle so I don't know. But even Amanda's best friend Madison Paxton has said has some strange or quirky behaviors. Like her singing for instance. As for Midwest and South I've there and yes it would be considered weird. Things like such openness to sexuality and drug usage. But having lived in college towns it's probably the norm. But outside she would definitely be consider a bad girl. Like a whore or stripper. A girl gone bad. But honestly I think most would she her as a cold blooded killer. Maybe Barbie theory would seem plausible in America.

Spoiler


A girl that had gotten herself overhead with a black drug dealer and a rich drug using boyfriend that is so intoxicated with hard drug and alcohol and accidentally kills her roommate. But can't remember much of it the next day. And some of the weirdness was due to a hangover the next day when the body was found.

End spoiler

Maybe this would seem plausible to Italians as well. Of course Barbie's theory doesn't agree with the evidence.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby MustBeQuantum » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:46 pm

A few years ago I served on a jury regarding a drug distribution case. The prosecution was overreaching to the point of fantasy (if you have more than one cellphone is de facto drug dealing, etc.) but the interesting thing was that the young people on the jury were perfectly willing to accept whatever the prosecution said without question, rather than the middle-aged and older rather cynical midwesterners who were willing to accept that the police perhaps "exaggerated" for the sake of their task force raids. Right now, I would posit that younger people believe in automatic guilt and older people with more experience are more open to questions on what authorities are selling.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:07 pm

@MustBeQuantum

Interesting experience the one you had in that jury...usually one would think that young people should be more anti-system than older people.
But then, when you consider how much AK and RS trusted the police...probably it depends on your upbringing: Rudy did trust them less. ;)

@sflicker

Thank you very much for the poem: the original shows the rhymes that went lost in the Italian translation and even if for me is more difficult to fully appreciate poetic English than poetic Italian, it sounds wonderful nevertheless.

About Barbie's theory: does she factor a cleaning in her equation or not? Because with such an hangover ANY cleaning is impossible, let alone the magically selective one.

I think they really had a bit of hangover, but at Raffaele's.
They stated they smoked just a joint... I think maybe something like three, mixed with some wine ... and that would explain the incapacity of remembering exactly what they did and when and in what order.
But why didn't they simply say that?
Exactly because of theories like Barbie's: I think their lawyers told them to stick with the one joint version, since I heard people on Italian TV seriously saying than if you smoke a joint you can really murder someone, imagine with three...that's mass murder!

My next review will be about The Fatal Gift of Beauty by Nina Burleigh: I'm just reading it a second time just to appreciate it better: it's a complex book with an interesting (even if not necessarily correct) view of Amanda and of her relationship with Meredith.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:13 pm

I think had several chances where could have turn on Amanda during the arrest and trial. When he was first arrested and during the trial itself he could have asked for separate trials. I'm pretty from various sources he was pressed to do so. I'm sure could have gotten out maybe soon after the arrest and Amanda likely would still be in prison. I think this was vary heroic of Raffaele.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby MustBeQuantum » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:44 pm

For both AK and RS, the "romantic" idea that external wrongs do not make right as far as any conception of truth make them both heroic. I do not see any personal romantic issues with either of them -- for petessakes they were not together for very long before the "Monster of Perugia" overtook everyone and everything.

However, both of them have shown true gravitas in their insistence that they did not know anything that went on that night. Awful thing for youngsters to face; but they did it with as much truth as possible during a literal witchhunt. My admiration for both of them.

The "Monster of Perugia" is a diffuse, undefined bit of literary conceit, but unfortunately all too real.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby roteoctober » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:00 pm

sflicker wrote:I think had several chances where could have turn on Amanda during the arrest and trial. When he was first arrested and during the trial itself he could have asked for separate trials. I'm pretty from various sources he was pressed to do so. I'm sure could have gotten out maybe soon after the arrest and Amanda likely would still be in prison. I think this was vary heroic of Raffaele.


His aunt expressly said a few week ago on Italian TV that they pressed him to do so but that he refused.
I can imagine RS parents and relatives saying "But who is that girl? You have been knowing her since a so short time..."
By the way, I think they aren't very fond of her neither today (I had this impression, just an impression, from how RS's aunt referred briefly to Amanda), even if certainly they respect her.
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Re: BOOK DISCUSSION - TAKE ME WITH YOU

Postby sflicker » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:18 pm

roteoctober wrote:@MustBeQuantum

Interesting experience the one you had in that jury...usually one would think that young people should be more anti-system than older people.
But then, when you consider how much AK and RS trusted the police...probably it depends on your upbringing: Rudy did trust them less. ;)

@sflicker

Thank you very much for the poem: the original shows the rhymes that went lost in the Italian translation and even if for me is more difficult to fully appreciate poetic English than poetic Italian, it sounds wonderful nevertheless.

About Barbie's theory: does she factor a cleaning in her equation or not? Because with such an hangover ANY cleaning is impossible, let alone the magically selective one.

I think they really had a bit of hangover, but at Raffaele's.
They stated they smoked just a joint... I think maybe something like three, mixed with some wine ... and that would explain the incapacity of remembering exactly what they did and when and in what order.
But why didn't they simply say that?
Exactly because of theories like Barbie's: I think their lawyers told them to stick with the one joint version, since I heard people on Italian TV seriously saying than if you smoke a joint you can really murder someone, imagine with three...that's mass murder!

My next review will be about The Fatal Gift of Beauty by Nina Burleigh: I'm just reading it a second time just to appreciate it better: it's a complex book with an interesting (even if not necessarily correct) view of Amanda and of her relationship with Meredith.


I think the poem is really good. Sad too of course like many things related to this horrible injustice. Perhaps Amanda will be famous someday for her writing skills as well.

I'll try a post an organized summary of the crime from Barbie's book. It does take into account the cleanup. I made a couple of posts on that book in that books topicm and I'll try and organize them a bit as well. The part of the book where Barbie explains what she thinks happens (her theory) is pretty small maybe 10-15 pages.

I want to spend some time reading Rocco's book first though.

On a personal note, I find studying the whole case a great way to learn more about Italy. Even though I heard about the case when it first broke I didn't really follow it until the end of September right before the appeal verdict. I did catch a few pieces here and there but that's about it. Six weeks ago I had never even heard of Perugia.
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TAKE ME WITH YOU: Talks with Amanda Knox in prison

Postby Sarah » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:56 pm

Take me with you: Talks with Amanda Knox in prison
by Rocco Girlanda
Discussion and Reviews
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