What Happened Downstairs?

Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:49 am

kermit the frog wrote:
I don't deny that it is most likely that Guede was the killer. But still I don't get it how someone goes for burglaring and then suddenly feels more like murdering. This should be at least statistically a very rare case to find in history.


Why do you think someone who was already committing crimes with a high risk of violence up to the point of death, a burglar who showed no inhibitions about being in someone else's home, and carried knives, wouldn't assault and murder someone?

I can't think of many people more likely to do so.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:23 am

But how many burglars attack and kill someone without a reason. Normally their biggest concern is not being caught and Guede had the chance when Kercher already passed him undiscovered sitting on the toilet. The open door was just steps away and most of the burglars are never caught. So did he like to sit in jail for nothing? I think that would even be possible if desperate and dumb enough.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:35 am

kermit the frog wrote:But how many burglars attack and kill someone without a reason.


Numerous burglars attack/rape/threaten householders.

it's a high risk crime which can quite easily get you killed. so people who do it are hardly faint hearted.

There are something like 5 million google hits for similar things happening i believe in countries all over the world.

What do you actually think happens when a female encounters a larger, much stronger armed male burglar in their own home? Run through for us how you think that scenario goes.

By the way:

kermit the frog wrote:Normally their biggest concern is not being caught and Guede had the chance when Kercher already passed him undiscovered sitting on the toilet.


We have no idea if Kercher passed Guede undiscovered sitting on the toilet. If we are to (selectively, admittedly) believe Guede's testimony, it sounds like Kercher already realised something wasn't right when she came in.

And have you seen how cramped that place is? the idea of hiding is just silly.


kermit the frog wrote:The open door was just steps away and most of the burglars are never caught.


The door wasn't open. It was locked by Meredith. A key was needed to get out.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:54 am

In contrast to america posession of arms is the exception in europe. That's why burglary is a very popular crime especially for the italian youth - it's a fun sport like handbag-stealing on a bike. They would never expect to be threatened with a gun.

Meredith locked the door from inside?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:58 am

kermit the frog wrote:In contrast to america posession of arms is the exception in europe. That's why burglary is a very popular crime especially for the italian youth - it's a fun sport like handbag-stealing on a bike. They would never expect to be threatened with a gun.


Ah, excellent. We've diverted to the topic of gun ownership in America.

Well, guess what, I'm not American. But the UK government thinks you should be allowed to defend yourself and your family with deadly force if necessary against someone who has broken in.

And I'm sure Italian law also justifies killing a criminal in your home in order to protect yourself or your family.

So burglary is not for the faint hearted. Who cares what the law is anyway? How can you predict the actions of householders?

And yes, Meredith locked the door from inside.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Gibsie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:21 am

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at kermit- okay, you think it's unlikely a burglar would end up committing a murder. I understand finding it hard to rationalise why someone would commit such a terrible killing. But what do you think the alternative is?

In one of your earlier posts you seemed to be suggesting that there was actually a second burglar. So, to presuppose Guede's innocence, based on the assumption that burglars aren't usually killers, you seem to think that there might have been a second burglar present who goes against the aforementioned assumption that burglars don't kill.

Just think about it... your own logic that means burglars don't kill means there is even less chance of Guede not being the killer. Because that would mean that not only does a murderous burglar exist after all (which you seem to think is unlikely), but he also decided to invade the property on exactly the same night at the same time! This is unfathomably unlikely. Perhaps you're suggesting a second burglar came along with Guede and committed the murder; okay, there's no evidence of this having happened, but qualitatively, this would make Guede equally responsible for the murder anyway.

The alternative is a directed assassination by persons unknown (perhaps Knox), which is again so unlikely, and I think you've stated you don't believe in their guilt. So, the same question that we ask many guilters (that is almost never answered directly): what do you actually think happened? We can all come up with a wild hypothesis, but at the moment all we have is the vast amount of evidence that Guede was present when Kercher was killed, which by Ocham's Razor would tell us he did it. Sadly, the simple reason that he's a bad man is enough to explain a motive for the evidence obtained. I don't think he meant to murder her when he broke into the property, perhaps he didn't even mean to do it as he started stabbing her. Murder is often irrational, and hard to understand. How often do you read about a murder in a newspaper and think, "Yeah, I can understand why he did that. They deserved it, the murderer's actions make complete sense"?

Otherwise you might as well suppose he walked in on Kercher trying to kill herself and tried to save her, which is why his DNA was everywhere (including inside her- the classic "oops I slipped and fell inside her, your honour!" defense). That's as realistic as any other suggestion, based on the evidence. We like evidence. Guilters don't, because you can prove anything with evidence (as long as it's true to begin with).
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby florence » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:50 am

Kermit, first you say Meredith's killer was a mystery burglar, but not Rudy.
kermit the frog wrote:
No, but it might simply be true what he said. While he was on toilet there was an intruder unknown to him "the italian", attacking Kercher. This might be the actual burglar, who might have hidden himself somewhere in the dark when he heard someone entering the house. In an area with such a high frequency of burglary events there is a certain chance of a coincidence of events.


Now you are saying the person who killed Meredith was not a burglar.
kermit the frog wrote:
But how many burglars attack and kill someone without a reason. Normally their biggest concern is not being caught and Guede had the chance when Kercher already passed him undiscovered sitting on the toilet. The open door was just steps away and most of the burglars are never caught. So did he like to sit in jail for nothing? I think that would even be possible if desperate and dumb enough.


You are contradicting yourself and it's not clear what your point is.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby lookinglass » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:13 am

[quote="kermit the frog"]I know I shouldn't. But his vita and adoptive parents seem to support that impression.

@lookinglass
I couldn't find a link of 'rudy guede necrophiliast'. What was your source to this?

This one ..........http://www.salem-news.com/articles/dece ... a-know.php
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:41 am

No, what I meant (and wrote) is that noone murders without a reason - even a burglar.

That doesn't mean that the killer couldn't be a burglar. In this case we can assume either way it was a burglar that killed. But the reason for the murder can not be automatically or at least easily be derived from the act of burglary as suggested. The purpose of burglary is usually theft what is not comparable to murder in any way.
Also the law enforcement differs significantly: While burglars can (statistically) expect not to be caught or if caught to be released soon without big consequences (as Rudy had learned already) - comitting a murder would most likely result in a long imprisonment. Why would someone go this way without any big gain? Or could there be an appropriate gain?
1) Money or valuables? From students? Needless to ask. What you can expect there would hardly pay the rent.
2) Sex? For a guy like Rudy in a students town with big nightlife full of female foreign students looking for sexual adventures with their boyfriends left at home? Nope.
3) Staying undiscovered for burglary and get away? Well, after he already experienced the consequences of being caught for burglary (they sent him right back home) AND knowing he left his fingerprints registered so that a MURDER investigation would bring him into jail quickly - easy choice, normally!
4) Perverted addiction to kill? I couldn't imagine any case of murder where this couldn't be claimed as a reason.

We have to admit, there is no plausible reason existing for Rudy to murder. And alleging, just for a minute, he did not murder he has no reason to lie in the first place what would make him (the only) eye-witness. Of course that still leaves the question, why would another burglar or intruder have a reason. Good point! But lets face it, as long as the question of the reason is totally open, there is no way to say who did it with certainty.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Gibsie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:18 am

kermit, are you actually contending, that in a situation where there is a massive amount of evidence that the suspect (Guede) committed the murder, that the fact that you cannot fathom a motive for the killing, means that he therefore didn't do it?

You make some very interesting choices of language in your posts. Quite funny, sometimes, if it wasn't so tragic. Here:
1) "What you would expect there would hardly pay the rent": extremely ironic choice of words, since this was the time when rent would be due, and could be stolen- literally paying the rent. I'm not sure that money should be considered a motive for murder in this case- it's the motive for burglary, which Rudy did commit, at Kercher and Knox's apartment, and elsewhere.
2) For many sexual predators it's not all about the sex, it's about the power. And Guede certainly demonstrated ultimate power over Kercher. One possibility is that he thought, like you, that female foreign students are easy, and fair game, and was outraged that one might turn him down. A testosterone, adrenaline (and alcohol/drug?)-fuelled criminal might certainly see that as reason to turn violent. Or perhaps you think that Kercher admitted Guede for a consensual encounter? You know exactly what those females are like, don't you?
3) If Kercher discovered him performing a criminal act, then removing the witness is certainly a motive. It's not a smart move, of course, but then Guede is not a smart man.
4) As made-up a reason as it was when people suggested it of Knox. Let's discount it for him as well, as it's not necessary to prove him to be the killer.

We can admit, if you really want, that there was no good reason for Rudy to commit a murder. It was certainly a terrible decision, likely made in the heat of the moment. Again I ask you, how often do you hear of a murderer being convicted and think, "Wow, that was a good idea! I understand why he decided to commit that murder, even though he got caught. It makes perfect sense."

You are very naive to say that there is no reason to lie in the first place to say he was present- his DNA was everywhere. He cannot get around that. Nor can you. He has to admit being there. I don't call you naive to offend you, just to say you must be missing a lot of the facts about this case to think the way you do. He has every reason to lie about what he did while present- if he admitted it was him alone, his own mistake, no Knox, no Sollecito, then he gets the full brunt of the sentence. Instead, the prosecutors allow him to implicate two others (even though it's self-contradictory nonsense) and he gets to go on day-release this year. Now there's a motive. I wonder if Guede will continue to be the model citizen that deluded people try to portray him as when he gets out of jail?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:04 am

I am here because I am convinced of ths innocence of A&R and that they have been railroaded by the Italian Judiciary.
I am not here to discuss "Guilt" or "Innocence" of Guede because I am absoltuly convinced that he was the sole perpetrator of this case. I would not in any about Guede at all if it was possible to understand this case ignoring him. I would never invest myself in a case to support a guilt case against anybody. But it is a moral obligation for me to speak out in a case where the Judiciary tries to convict by all means innocent people, I am sure that advocating innocence is a noble cause.

Back to the case, the crime scene and the known evidence point to one person being responsable for this crime, there is no evidence pointing to anybody else. If there had been a second or more people involved in committing this murder in this small room there would have been traces left by these people in an exponential growing number compared to one single attacker.
The analyses of the existing photos of the broken window clearly show that the window was broken from the outside (anybody willing can compare the available material with the documentation of Ron Hendry) and there is a clear fresh mark on the outside roof (superior row of stones around the window of the first floor).
Concerning the motive I do not believe that there was any premeditation to kill or to rape. The killing was the result of progressive escalation of the situation, with a predisposal to physical violence because the perpetrator was carrying and arm. The rape was with great certainty the result of violence and domination of the young women.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:48 am

1) "What you would expect there would hardly pay the rent": extremely ironic choice of words, since this was the time when rent would be due, and could be stolen- literally paying the rent.

Yep not the best choice of words in this case - but usually the rent is paid not after 21:00 in the night so a burglar would not expect to find rent money anymore at that time, right? Unless he knew more than we know. But as you say, even then, for 300€?

We can admit, if you really want, that there was no good reason for Rudy to commit a murder. It was certainly a terrible decision, likely made in the heat of the moment. Again I ask you, how often do you hear of a murderer being convicted and think, "Wow, that was a good idea! I understand why he decided to commit that murder, even though he got caught. It makes perfect sense."


Well, if you ask me, personally, I am sure that nothing happens without a reason.
Even the law - of what I know in my country - REQUIRES a motive to be presented as a mandatory precondition for a murder conviction. And it has still to be examined to fulfill a certain 'quality'. So generally, it should make sense.

Stating just "a murder without a reason, case closed" is the Italian judiciaries view that I don't have to support.


You are very naive to say that there is no reason to lie in the first place to say he was present-
...


It's obvious he has a reason to lie IF (in case) he is guilty. But you are confusingly referring to my statement "And alleging, just for a minute, he did not murder he has no reason to lie in the first place..."


Gibsie wrote:kermit, are you actually contending, that in a situation where there is a massive amount of evidence that the suspect (Guede) committed the murder, that the fact that you cannot fathom a motive for the killing, means that he therefore didn't do it?


No, and I didn't write that. Is there actually evidence that noone else but Guede could have done it?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:59 am

kermit the frog wrote:
No, and I didn't write that. Is there actually evidence that noone else but Guede could have done it?


Yes there is, as people have been repeatedly telling you. The distinct lack of evidence against anyone but Guede.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Gibsie » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:14 pm

Perhaps... have you ever seen Misfits? It's a show on channel 4 here in Britain, and features a character called Rudy, who, after a mysterious lightning storm splits into multiple copies. One copy is nice, another is mean and I think there's a murderous third copy. Now, they say truth is stranger than fiction, so maybe, like in the fictional TV show, there were multiple copies of Rudy? After all, he was also seen at a nightclub the night of the murder, and it's hard to imagine a murderer going out to party after a heinous murder. So maybe that was the nice version of Rudy, while the other two killed Meredith Kercher? Makes you think. Has anyone else ever considered the "multiple Rudy" theory? I mean you can't prove it, but there's no evidence that it didn't happen either.

(In case this is unclear, I am equating a sci-fi comedy show's premise with that of the scenarios that people like kermit the frog and michael mills present regarding how and why Rudy Guede did (or did not, apparently) do what he has been shown to have done)
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:47 pm

Gibsie wrote:Perhaps... have you ever seen Misfits? It's a show on channel 4 here in Britain, and features a character called Rudy, who, after a mysterious lightning storm splits into multiple copies. One copy is nice, another is mean and I think there's a murderous third copy. Now, they say truth is stranger than fiction, so maybe, like in the fictional TV show, there were multiple copies of Rudy? After all, he was also seen at a nightclub the night of the murder, and it's hard to imagine a murderer going out to party after a heinous murder. So maybe that was the nice version of Rudy, while the other two killed Meredith Kercher? Makes you think. Has anyone else ever considered the "multiple Rudy" theory? I mean you can't prove it, but there's no evidence that it didn't happen either.


I think it is very dangerous to make statements about the "psychology" or the "psychopathology" of anybody through the analyses of a criminal case and through tele-diagnostics. There is very few information available about Rudy Guede, as well before as after the crime.
The only major document from himself and about himself are the letters of him from Germany.

I have been reading them to find out if there are correlations between his description of the crime, the crime and what was availed about him in the documents and some of the books about the case. And there are.
IMO the letters also show that he was very well ware what he had done and that the murder of MK would be a turning point in his life. But that is only my interpretation.

The most interesting part shows that he was very well following the available news while in Germany and if shows that he did at that moment not understand why Patrick Lumumba, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. He simply at that moment did not know and understand what the discussion about the three was about.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:16 pm

Could it be a reason that he experienced humiliation by repeatedly being caught in his break-ins? It demonstrates that he isn't very successful in what he is doing but maybe he just doesn't care. In the moment when Kercher came in and locked the door again he must have realized that he was going to be caught again. But this time in his home town. Not a nice situation.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Sarah » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:34 am

Raffaele's Aunt just posted some photos on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/sara.achille/p ... 3818949036

Chi di voi sa che la villetta di via della Pergola 7 è composta da due appartamenti? In uno abitavano le ragazze, in quello sottostante alcuni ragazzi, tra cui il ragazzo di Meredith. Bene... Chi di voi sa che nell'appartamento dei ragazzi, vuoto il giorno dell'omicidio, c'era qualcosa di strano? "Cosa? " vi stareste chiedendo. Guardate con i vostri occhi.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Slang_King » Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:36 pm

Kermit - I'm struggling to even comprehend your question as to why a 'burglar' killed Meredith. While RG may've entered the apartment intent on burglary, upon encountering Meredith he subjected her to a sadistic rape. So, my first guess as to his motive is that he killed her to avoid future identification and conviction. My second guess (little more than a variation) is that the fatal wound was a part of his sadistic attack - the sadist elements being the superficial 'pricking' wounds. In that instance, his motive being simply that he enjoyed it - a well documented 'motive' for sadistic rapist/killers.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:31 am

So you guess he was even happy when Meredith came in. Ok, I accept everybody has to find his explanation of the motivation. I might just need a little longer.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:32 am

Sarah wrote:Raffaele's Aunt just posted some photos on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/sara.achille/p ... 3818949036

Chi di voi sa che la villetta di via della Pergola 7 è composta da due appartamenti? In uno abitavano le ragazze, in quello sottostante alcuni ragazzi, tra cui il ragazzo di Meredith. Bene... Chi di voi sa che nell'appartamento dei ragazzi, vuoto il giorno dell'omicidio, c'era qualcosa di strano? "Cosa? " vi stareste chiedendo. Guardate con i vostri occhi.


Was that the cat's blood downstairs?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:38 am

From the letters of Rudy Guede (while he was stil in Germany):

Guede time line and arrival at the cottage.

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.


Guede is confirming that he never had any contact with Amanda and Raffaele.

"There was only red, nothing else. Damn, if I hadn’t gone to the bathroom, perhaps I would have opened the door, and maybe nothing would have happened. Oh my God, why all this, what had that person tried to tell me with “black man found, guilty man found?” Did he know me? I wasn’t able to see him well because the house was not well lit. Only Meredith’s room had light. I remember because the abat-jour was switched on. Maybe that’s why they accused Patrick, the first black man close to Meredith?"

"I didn’t go out often with Amanda and Meredith, on the contrary, to tell the truth, we never went out together. And therefore that person who asks me, not knowing me, he could have been able to say that Patrick was the guilty one? Because he was close to, and went out often with Meredith? Or with Amanda? They had to blame someone and therefore, as she was seen with a black man, there was no problem, because they knew how to find him. Damn, it’s an absurd story".

Guede does not really understand at this moment why Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele shoud be involved in the crime !

I left the house in shock. I was outside, but didn’t know where to go, seeing still all that blood. It was all so red. I thought of going home. I had wet trousers and tried to cover it with the sweatshirt.There were a lot of people in the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still playing basketball even though it was dark.

If this was right, it must not have been late when he left the cottage! Did supèr witness Curatolo ever mention basketball players?

I arrived back home, not knowing what to do. I remember having taken off my pants. I changed only those, because of the clothes I was wearing, only the trousers were dirty. I put on the “Pelle Pelle” ones, I remember because many of my friends said they looked like pijamas. I washed my hands, they were full of blood, in the sink, and I left.I just wasn’t able to stay home. It seemed I was seeing blood everywhere. I went to Alex’s house, where, by the way, I already passed, an hour before. I also met Philip."
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Sarah » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:41 pm

"And who was in the house below when I left?"

Page 24 from Rudy Guede's diary.
I think this is possibly confirmation that he was in the downstairs apartment after the murder:

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Rudys-Statement-German-Diary.pdf
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:41 am

Can I interpret it that way that Guede tries to proactively explain everything (blood and traces in the downstairs apartment) that is unavoidably found by the police - in a way that keeps himself in an innocent role? Maybe I underestimated him. He seems to be more than talented liar.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:45 am

kermit the frog wrote:Can I interpret it that way that Guede tries to proactively explain everything (blood and traces in the downstairs apartment) that is unavoidably found by the police - in a way that keeps himself in an innocent role? Maybe I underestimated him. He seems to be more than talented liar.


I always agreed that the way he tries to minimise his role in the killing is rather clever (a mix of what he did, what he denies and what he concedes when the information is pointing against him and he cannot deny).
I have been reading somewhere that Walter Biscotti intended to visit him in prison in Germany. I do not know if this visit ever occurred and if it occurred, when did it occur and when did RG finish writing his letters.

Concerning the downstairs floor, I really don't know. My suspicion was that he said this to imply most possible persons around the cottage and so around MK. But definitely I have no idea about it and the facts of the downstairs investigation are all but complete.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:07 am

Maybe needless to ask, but were those blood spots ever investigated by the police?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby struoc » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:56 am

kermit the frog wrote:
But how many burglars attack and kill someone without a reason.

Normally their biggest concern is not being caught and Guede had the chance when Kercher already passed him undiscovered sitting on the toilet.


Do statistics matter, if it happened once it is possible. Of course it happens.
Read the Anne Presely case very similar, theres many examples. Home invasions are on the rise in some citys (where the owners are in the home when the break-in occurs).

You are being creative in thinking, your above mentioned scenario you call "normally" is only a scenario you propose, what if it isnt correct at all?
Did you watch the prisoners testimony stating Rudys prison yard tale? Thats another scenario totally different but possibly true.
The prosecution has oddly created numerous contradicting scenarios, and use different scenarios everytime the old scenario is found to be weak. "whack a mole" prosecution attacks. example: If the large knife couldnt have made all the wounds the prosecution created the Two Knife theory. Maybe three knifes was set to go next.... maybe if Patrick hadnt been allowed an alibi and become a Mignini/Maresca supporter, he would be included in the foursome-scenario the prosecution could have created.

You assume Rudy was pooping when Meredith came in, some think its a reaction after killing someone. Some believe he even came back later after being at the bar. Only Rudy knows, and hes a proven liar.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:42 am

It now appears to me that Guede is an exceptional creative liar.
Initially I knew his stepfather called him a liar but didn't take this too serious because the stepfather was asked to explain why he chased away his adopted son. Still a strange explanation.
Then after reading statements from people living with him and others with social contact in Perugia, even "friends" you get the impression that all his life was only a lie still at that time. They described a totally different Guede in contrast to the facts found about him. It appeared he was used lie to everyone about his own life - and possibly even to himself or to an alter ego of him however.
Thanks to the sloppy police work we can't really exclude anything - many scenarios are possible if you hardly have one piece of assured evidence and the witness testimonies changing all the time. So I'm still cautious to convict anybody on this basis. But I think this special personality of Guede is the key to the solution here. He is just not the ordinary occasional burglar that I've falsely assumed initially.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Speakfortruth » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:51 am

Here a few things that might help

The question remains: were the downstairs samples really “cat blood”? The Scientific Police’s records are inconclusive and their actions suggest that they did not believe the samples were “cat blood”:

No species-specific blood test was observed by the defense, no methodology to identify species is disclosed in the SALs, and no corresponding test records have been produced.

The lab did not stop testing the samples that its records now say are “cat blood” (as would be expected if it believed it was dealing with cat samples), but instead, the lab subjected all of these traces to subsequent human-specific DNA analysis (Real Time PCR amplification and STR amplification).

The results of the Lab’s DNA testing undercut the suggestion that a species-specific blood test was performed, leading to a proper identification of all of the blood-positive samples as “cat blood”:

Only 2 of the 18 “cat blood” traces failed to quantify at least some human DNA.

Of the 20 blood-positive traces, 8 had sufficient quantity of human DNA such that, per the Lab’s practice, they could be genetically profiled. Of these 8 traces, the Lab records suggest that at least 6 were genetically-profiled (via STR analysis), but none of the ensuing 6 profiles have been disclosed by the prosecution.

It is implausible that some of the items identified as “cat blood”would actually have been deposited by a cat or that a cat could bleed from the ear that much:

Item Nos. 8, 9 and 10 form a path of 10 apparent freshblood drops leading down the steps to the entry door to the downstairs apartment. The number and placement of drops appears too profuse to be from a cat. In addition, the drops are wide and diffuse, suggesting that they might not represent drops of pure blood, but rather, blood thinned with water.

Item No. 28 is a lightswitch on the wall of the downstairs apartment. The lightswitch samples are the only blood samples from inside of the downstairs apartment that are not identified as cat’s blood.

The blood samples and their arrangement in the bedding may be too profuse to have been deposited by a cat.

There are irregularities in the analysis of some of the “cat blood” items, which suggest that there could have been problems with the lab analyses:

Of the 10 traces forming the path down the steps and to the entry door to the downstairs apartment, 8 were negative for blood and 2 were positive for blood, even though all traces obviously derive from a common source. Further, 5 of these traces quantified at least some human DNA via Real Time PCR. Two of the blood-negative traces quantified asufficient quantity of human DNA that per the Lab’s practice, they could be genetically profiled, and yet, no corresponding profiles were produced.

The two profiles apparently generated from the lightswitch traces (positive for blood, no species identified) appear to be missing from the prosecution’s document production.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Alex_K » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:14 pm

Speakfortruth wrote:Here a few things that might help


This is quite remarkable and something completely new to me, but what are the sources?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby MichaelB » Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:46 pm

Alex_K wrote:
Speakfortruth wrote:Here a few things that might help


This is quite remarkable and something completely new to me, but what are the sources?


http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Tracy Lingold » Fri May 16, 2014 10:26 am

MichaelB wrote::MJ:

Were these plants upstairs or down? The police video implies they were upstairs. Anyone?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Sarah » Fri May 16, 2014 6:32 pm

Tracy Lingold wrote:
MichaelB wrote::MJ:

Were these plants upstairs or down? The police video implies they were upstairs. Anyone?


They were downstairs. The guys downstairs were growing it.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby MichaelB » Sat May 17, 2014 2:33 am

Tracy Lingold wrote:
MichaelB wrote::MJ:

Were these plants upstairs or down? The police video implies they were upstairs. Anyone?


I skimmed your "Best Fit Report" earlier. What is the purpose of it? You obviously put a lot of time into it yet get nearly everything wrong. Are you a student and this was a research project?

My name is Sigrun Van Houten and I am a criminology researcher dedicated to researching difficult homicide cases likely involving American female perpetrators. While in all cases a female perpetrator is not necessarily supported by the subsequent research, in many cases I have found their involvement to be highly probable. As in all cases, I begin with the document trail left by authorities and media and examine additional information wherever I find it available. In this case a particular challenge for American researchers (and which has had an unfortunate impact on the general public) has been the lack of adequate translation between Italian and English however, many volunteers have offered their time and effort to perform many of the translations this work required and I am indebted to their service. I also endeavor to bring awareness to the reader of what kind of toll homicides perpetrated by the mentally ill have on the victim, the victim’s family and the family of the perpetrator. While it may be a hard pill to swallow, it is important to understand that these crimes result from mental illnesses which are not the fault of the sufferer. This places a special duty on the members of perpetrator families to do everything in their power to assist authorities and the public in preventing crimes such as these in the future; namely, to do everything possible to ensure treatment and, due to the difficulty of successful treatment, to ensure their loved ones are properly institutionalized and treated for the remainder of their natural lives. I use a technique in this work known as best-fit analysis which is borrowed from the work of Case Officers in the U.S. clandestine services and which is used to assemble a most probable narrative wherever supporting information is incomplete or limited. I have described this technique in great detail in other works (including a dissertation) and will not engage it again here, but I will be happy to provide copies for those who request it. I currently reside in Healdsburg California. I may be reached at sigrunvanhouten@gmail.com. My first name is pronounced “Zigrin”.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Alex_K » Sat May 17, 2014 9:33 am

Sigrun Van Houten? Other works? How can we find them? How come the name only comes up three times on Google? Is this another nameless troll?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Tracy Lingold » Sat May 17, 2014 9:34 am

I skimmed your "Best Fit Report" earlier. What is the purpose of it? You obviously put a lot of time into it yet get nearly everything wrong. Are you a student and this was a research project?


I didn't write it, my friend did. Yes, it was a project she worked on. Why do you call it an "idiot report"? Are you angry about something? Do you have some connection with the parties?

The correct link is http://kirkomrik.wordpress.com

Could you point out some specific factual errors with refs so she can correct them?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Tracy Lingold » Sat May 17, 2014 9:38 am

Alex_K wrote:Sigrun Van Houten? Other works? How can we find them? How come the name only comes up three times on Google? Is this another nameless troll?


You also sound angry about something. But Sigrun appreciates the unsolicited interest. Is there anything specific you wanted to discuss about it?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby MichaelB » Sat May 17, 2014 10:51 pm

From the author posted @ .nut who is also Tracy Lingold here.

Hi all,

I wrote a report for a graduate course at my school and I see that I have been doxxed and discussed here. The correct link to the report is http://kirkomrik.wordpress.com. The one given is outdated. Corrections to that report have been made, including things not used in my conclusion such as "where the marijuana was growing". Secondly, if you are unable to comprehend what is being stated in the report I don't know where else to begin other than to suggest you read a very long document ... more slowly. In it, there is NO suggestion that AMK and RS were not participating in their own prank. If you understand what the word means and can comprehend that a prank doesn't normally involve murder this should be an easy step.

The accounts "appear out of nowhere" because of stalkers and doxxers, put bluntly. It is no one's business what my favorite breakfast cereal is. If anyone has a fact that they think is relevant to my conclusion and needs to be corrected, please do so, I would enjoy that conversation. Also, I would enjoy a conversation regarding probative value and logic but I am not a slave to confirmation bias. I've never suggested that RS should somehow be "left out" and it is QUITE clear in the Executive Summary that a best fit, according to my analysis, must include him as a party responsible.

Clearly, this case has a carnival atmosphere that is revolting and few seem interested in the TRUTH. I am not interested in bolstering anyone's preconceived notions about what happened, so if you have any commentary that deals directly with the content of the report I can either explain it to you, correct the facts, or subject my reasoning to your scrutiny.

Sigrun Van Houten, University of California Berkeley


If you're at Berkeley then I'd advise not submitting the idiot report. :wink:

If you want to know what happened the night of November 1, then just ask in the "Questions about the case" thread, but I'm not going to waste time correcting all your mistakes.

They're talking about what you've written here as well if you want to discuss it. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=274219&page=175
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 am

MichaelB wrote:
If you're at Berkeley then I'd advise not submitting the idiot report. :wink:



This 'best fit analysis' seems like a lot of fun.

Actually I used to do it myself as a kid, but I just called it 'making things up'.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Alex_K » Sun May 18, 2014 7:48 am

I don't think Sigrun Van Houten is the real name of a real college student. "A criminology researcher dedicated to researching difficult homicide cases likely involving American female perpetrators" - WTF is this supposed to mean?

The report itself is an odd mixture of the reasonable and the absurd, which is why it reads like a work of a high-IQ mental patient*. Overall, it's a work of fantasy craftily weaving together off-the-wall claims, well-reasoned linkages, and speculation.

The author gets the single-murder part and the time of death right, the latter for the wrong reasons. She realizes that the DNA evidence is worthless but she's muddled on Luminol. Her discussion of the break-in, however, is both superficial and disingenuous. She does mention Guede's background as a burglar, his mode of operation, and his conviction. She glosses over the near-certainty that the stone was thrown from the outside. Likewise, her discussion of CCTV is non-existent. She just says it's Amanda because of the posture. She accepts the clean-up theory no matter despite its unadulterated absurdity.

But it's when it comes to psychology that it becomes total curtains. There's not a whiff of credibility left once she's gone into voodoo psych. The repeated references to Lizzie Borden - of whom very little is actually known - destroy the author's claim to being taken seriously. One thing that's clear is the author's deep emotional investment in the case: she cannot hold it back at times.

Once true professionals have spoken out - people like John Douglas, Jim Clemente, Bruce Budowle, Dan Krane, Saul Kassin, Sam Drizin, Steve Moore, Ron Hendry, etc. - it's hard to see what value can be possibly added by this "report".

I suspect it's another pro-guilt PR stunt waiting to be spun to deflect attention from Nencini's report.

*Leila Schneps could have authored it. Not claiming she did, of course, but such rubbish would be "compatible", as Italians are fond of saying, with her mindset.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby B_Real » Sun May 18, 2014 9:09 am

Alex_K wrote:The report itself is an odd mixture of the reasonable and the absurd, which is why it reads like a work of a high-IQ mental patient*. Overall, it's a work of fantasy craftily weaving together off-the-wall claims, well-reasoned linkages, and speculation.



The author is far from stupid but doesn't appear educated to degree level, to me anyway.

Looks like another internet whacko with no verifiable relevant experience.

The blog it was posted on is full of long, rambling, similarly odd posts, though the blog author claims not to be the author of this report.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Sun May 18, 2014 5:36 pm

Still it deserves its page in the international Kercher Murder Conspiracy Theories Catalog. I start to realize that there will never be a last page of this document.
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Re: Downstairs Crime Scene

Postby Tablebeforme » Wed May 28, 2014 5:54 pm

Donna wrote:I had not yet gotten to that thread yet, Hans, so my bad :) This is why I normally do not reply right away but feel odd sometimes if I take too long before responding to a post. Is there a tagname for people like me? I knew they did not commit the murder but did honestly feel they at least knew what really happened that night. And yes - I was Pissed Off with a capital PO lol. Everyone should be allowed to ask questions without fear of nasty posts or messages because I did not drink the koolaid and scrape the ground while extolling praise on "how enlightening and perfect" the 'regulars' are over there. It is kind of funny now to get the 'system offline' or 'unknown username' when I tried to login to post a message in rebuttal of their posts. I'm guessing that is probably why nobody on the site actually ever writes that they no longer believe - because those posts are deleted by management or the user is blocked before they can go public.


Hans wrote:
Donna wrote:gray...the checks in the mail lol. I am very grateful to Hans for finding me on tjmk and guiding me here! In the beginning I truly thought that A&R were at least knowledgeable about Meredith's murder, but after trying to prove their guilt I can only concede their innocence. The problem with the guilters is that they have massei-syndrome - they cherry-pick from the truth then twist and spin it into something unreconizable.

If any of the guilters responsible the tjmk or pmf site read this - Shame on you!!! Remember....Karma's a bitch. If you are undecided, you are in the right place to soon see the truth matters and you will find it if you read the entire evidence. Now where's that tool to remove the judges heads from their rears before the next trial starts........................

You seemed quite p... o... over the responses you got on TJMK, so the Prize Bill offered here can't be awarded because you never were a "guilter" :twocents:
I wonder if this challenge can be won by anyone (Grayhawker and I are thinking of a way to rig it, to get at least a bottle of Screech... ::scotch:: )


Donna-I think I came to the light in much the same way you did. I was frequenting a guilter site, trying to verify my "hunches" about A and R. I had heard all the catch phrases....she looks guilty, he watches comic porn, bleach receipts, fake break in, all that we now know to be propaganda. After a while, I began to search for actual proof, and could find none.....EVEN on the GUILTER site. They have nothing but fancy language and stupid inside jokes. And I was quite willing to believe in them...if only they had evidence. All that time spent and I felt none more secure that I was correct in their guilt. After about an hour on this site, I knew I had been wrong. Sometimes I think many people would change their minds if only they would read innocence blogs. Then I think so many are in this so deep that Jesus Christ could come down, declare A and R innocent, and it wouldn't matter. Pride cometh before a fall, ya know. Keep doing the right thing, everyone. :Fishy:
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby LarryK » Thu May 29, 2014 12:54 am

Welcome, Tablebeforme! So glad you kept your mind open with a desire for the truth. I look forward to your posts on this and other cases in this forum.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Thu May 29, 2014 8:20 am

I never understood what should have or was supposed to have happened downstairs.
I have been reading about cat blood traces. But what is the real questions about the downstairs flat?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby roteoctober » Sat May 31, 2014 6:14 am

That possibly there was too much cat blood and in too many weird places. There is also the possibility not all of it really came from a cat. We know little because after November 6 the downstairs apartment was all but forgotten.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Tablebeforme » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:16 am

LarryK wrote:Welcome, Tablebeforme! So glad you kept your mind open with a desire for the truth. I look forward to your posts on this and other cases in this forum.



Thank you, LarryK! I'm not great at navigating these sites so I just saw your welcome post. :blush:
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Screen Name Pending » Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:31 pm

What happened downstairs was Rudy's friends lived there and Rudy watched a race on TV there.
They had all went away for the weekend on Nov. 1
Think about it, he broke into the apartment above his friends and killed their neighbor.
Usually burglars don't do the crimes in the their own neighborhood. They go somewhere they have some anonymity.
I also think that Rudy would know that there was nothing in that apartment that would make the crime worth while.
I suppose you could claim that when Meredith came home, Rudy had a motive, but it is not a good one, because I really don't think he was there to do a burglary.
The evidence shows he was there to murder.
We need to find a motive for Rudy to kill MK that the Italians can't question. With a maybe-maybe not motive they can claim that is just a theory and they have another theory about AK + RS helping Rudy, and they will believe their own theory.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby TruthMatters » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:51 pm

Has anyone found out who "stickyfingers" is by any chance? I still have not been able to put a name to his photo.

THanks!

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Re: Downstairs Crime Scene

Postby TruthMatters » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:00 pm

schmidt53 wrote:
pmop57 wrote:
Donna wrote:
What was the reason for Guede to go the cottage in the first place? Not a date with Meredith. He was at the cottage before Meredith arrived home. The location of the cottage is not visible from the basketball court where he suppose to hang out. The road above the cottage leads to nowhere that he would be going to. He didn't run into Amanda/Raffaele at 11:30 pm. So what if he was at the parking garage breaking into cars? A thief is a thief. Its a slow night so he makes his way to the upper level of the parking garage. On google map there appears to be stairs going from the up level to the lower level. You can get a good view of the cottage from the upper level of the garage. Just a thought.


I believe that rudy went to the cottage because he knew the guys downstairs would be gone and that there were pot plants inside that he could steal. He might have also known that Meredith had their key because she was charged with watering the plants. He also knew the girls would have money in their place because rent was due. I find it VERY odd that kokomani just so happened to be there at the same time. He is a known drug dealer so it leads me to believe that he and rudy were either there together or had arranged to meet there.

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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby littlegreyrabbit » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:15 am

As I understand it there was no sign of a break in downstairs. So what is the basis of claiming Rudy Guede going down there?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby littlegreyrabbit » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:36 pm

Golly! I was allowed to post - better keep of the sensitive subject of my proposed facebook page!

The inestimable Dan O (and my advice with Dan O is keep your friends close but your enemies closer) over on JREF gives us this reference
PERUGIA - Two keys connected with a ring. For the investigators have a 'further proof of the guilt of Amanda Knox, accused with Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba' s murder of Meredith Kercher. Are key 'apartment below the one where the young Englishman was killed in the evening between the' one and two November. On that ground, with three other boys, lives Giacomo Silenzi, Meredith's boyfriend, on 3 November he had told police: "Before leaving for Porto San Giorgio I gave the keys to my house asking Meredith to disinfect one of my two cats that had injured her ear. " On 6 November, the two keys were found in the chamber of Amanda Knox. Not a clue just because the room of Stephen, one of the three tenants of silence were discovered traces of blood. The four students have vowed to clean the stains left by the injured cat el 'entire house before leaving for vacation of the Bridge of the Dead. I do not know how to explain the traces of blood on the duvet of Stephen - said James Silenzi - just remember that the blood there 'was, and that Stephen had locked the room. " Those traces of blood could be part of the screening, according to investigators, enacted by Amanda and his accomplices to dribble suspects. Even these mysterious bloodstains are finished to the laboratory of the forensic team in Rome, where began the analysis of findings. The initial findings and observations were reviewed by the knife and shoes reminder. According to the claimant Maori and Brusco, the defenders of the young Pugliese, the first analysis did not found nothing incriminating. On November 7, but the experts of the Forensic Service had written: "By comparison, performed for overlapping / juxtaposition is evident that the traces are taken into consideration with the design (type and extent) of the sole of shoes bearing the Nike brand object of comparison . Yesterday in Perugia instead started the 'probative to search for tracks on' car and in the 'home of Sollecito and Lumumba in the room. The visit of Giuliano Mignini and whom also attended the lawyers of three defendants and their scientific and technical advice, continued late into the night. Sull 'Audi reminder, examined by forensic ultraviolet lamp and with Luminol, were detected eleven elements that will be analyzed in the laboratory. Of little help instead 's examination of the frames of the cameras square Grimana. And for the cameras of the parking lot next to Meredith's house, according to the Flying Squad's images do not allow to identify the person shooting. - From our MEO BRIDGE

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica ... scena.html

Now it is not absolutely clear from the article, but I would suggest Giacomo Silenzi was the source of the article's claim that the spare keys to his apartment were found in Amanda Knox's room. A claim, which I understand, has no basis in fact.

Come on.....is this really so complex? This is Italy, killing an unfaithful partner isn't really considered a crime over there.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby kermit the frog » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:56 am

Technically it was possible since the key to the downstairs apartment was located in the upstairs apartment. However there is no indication that he actually went there. My guess is that he didn't know about the key and when he was surprised by Meredith coming back any initial plans must have changed anyway.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby TruthMatters » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:58 pm

littlegreyrabbit wrote:As I understand it there was no sign of a break in downstairs. So what is the basis of claiming Rudy Guede going down there?



Hi littlegreyrabbit. rudy knew the guys downstairs. That is where he met Amanda and Meredith, because Meredith's sex partner - Giacomo - introduced them. He would have known the setup of both the downstairs and the upstairs apartments because he admitted to being in both. That is the basis of my theory that he would know that Meredith's bedroom door locked with a key (hotel style) - because the same thing was required downstairs, where he had even spent the night multiple times.

Edited to add: People are always bringing up the fact that Meredith's bedroom door was locked - that was the purpose of my post.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby littlegreyrabbit » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:41 am

TM
My reading of Hekuran's testimony is he knew a lot more than he felt able to say and that one of the things he indicated was that someone approached him about moving the body from the house. He has been threatened/bribed to obscure his testimony.

How I would read it is someone visit the house that night and inspected the scene and looking to escape early detection of the crime and maybe move the body next night (it was a bank holiday and maybe Amanda was staying over at her boyfriend's).
He knew it was a crime scene, so attempted to leave no traces. He removed the money from Meredith's purse and her keys and locked the door, in case he needed access later.

As he was not a veterinarian, he was unable to assist the suffering cat and therefore had no reason to visit the apartment downstairs.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby TruthMatters » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:05 pm

littlegreyrabbit wrote:TM
My reading of Hekuran's testimony is he knew a lot more than he felt able to say and that one of the things he indicated was that someone approached him about moving the body from the house. He has been threatened/bribed to obscure his testimony.

How I would read it is someone visit the house that night and inspected the scene and looking to escape early detection of the crime and maybe move the body next night (it was a bank holiday and maybe Amanda was staying over at her boyfriend's).
He knew it was a crime scene, so attempted to leave no traces. He removed the money from Meredith's purse and her keys and locked the door, in case he needed access later.

As he was not a veterinarian, he was unable to assist the suffering cat and therefore had no reason to visit the apartment downstairs.


So you admit that Hekuran appears to know more than he has admitted to/appears to covering up something. You admit RG removed money from MK's purse, took her keys, and locked her door. Why do you feel it is so unimaginable that Rudy then went downstairs to clean himself up, and search for any money that had been left behind or had planned on taking the pot plants/other drugs left in the boy's flat? Rudy was initially friends with the guys downstairs, had frequented the flat, and knew there were drugs there. He could have known about a large amount of cash downstairs that the boys had and stole that, but of course the downstairs boys would not admit to that if it was from drug sales.

It is the incompetent Italian police who claim that it was cat blood everywhere - they did NOT test the downstairs flat the way they should have - so we really do not know what went on downstairs. If you want to attempt to appear witty with cat remarks as above, that is fine, but it is blatantly obvious you are trying to lay red herrings.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby littlegreyrabbit » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:32 pm

So you admit that Hekuran appears to know more than he has admitted to/appears to covering up something.


Well, "admit" isn't the word I would use, it is my reconstruction of events that Hekuran's testimony is reasonably reliable except that he has, under compulsion, changed the identities in his narrative.

Which, I would point out, is no better or worse than anyone else in this sad business

You admit RG removed money from MK's purse, took her keys, and locked her door.

I do no such thing, I simply said one or more people broke in at night to inspect the scene.

I generally only hint to this, as I respect the purpose of this forum, but to assist your understanding I will spell it out directly. I believe Meredith Kercher was killed by the boys downstairs or rather two of them, jealous over perceived unfaithfulness. If I may point you in the direction of the Omerta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0

Omertà implies "the categorical prohibition of cooperation with state authorities or reliance on its services, even when one has been victim of a crime".[2] A person should absolutely avoid interfering in the business of others and should not inform the authorities of a crime under any circumstances (though if justified he may personally avenge a physical attack on himself or on his family by vendetta, literally a taking of revenge, a feud). Even if somebody is convicted of a crime he has not committed, he is supposed to serve the sentence without giving the police any information about the real criminal, even if that criminal has nothing to do with the Mafia.


All I would point out is if Amanda Knox returned to the apartment around 08:56 pm in the company of Rudy Guede, this will have been captured on CCTV. If this hypothetical situation is true, it might be sensible to revisit the entire break-in scenario. Unless she respects the code of Omerta so much she prefers to spend 28 years in prison rather than say "screw you, I'm American."
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby TruthMatters » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:30 pm

littlegreyrabbit wrote:
You admit RG removed money from MK's purse, took her keys, and locked her door.

I do no such thing, I simply said one or more people broke in at night to inspect the scene.


But it was RG's fingerprints and DNA that was found on/in Meredith's purse so who else would have taken the money?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby TruthMatters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:42 pm

littlegreyrabbit,

tap...tap...tap....Is this microphone on :) ?!?! So why is Rudy Guede's fingerprints and DNA on and inside Meredith Kercher's purse, which was sitting on Meredith Kercher's bed, next to Meredith Kercher's body, along with Rudy Guede's shoeprint in Meredith Kercher's blood (found UNDER her body) if HE was not the one who stole the money/keys/phones from Meredith Kercher's purse?

Thank you in advance for your answer.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Grayhawker » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:00 am

littlegreyrabbit wrote:Golly! I was allowed to post - better keep of the sensitive subject of my proposed facebook page!

The inestimable Dan O (and my advice with Dan O is keep your friends close but your enemies closer) over on JREF gives us this reference
PERUGIA - Two keys connected with a ring. For the investigators have a 'further proof of the guilt of Amanda Knox, accused with Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba' s murder of Meredith Kercher. Are key 'apartment below the one where the young Englishman was killed in the evening between the' one and two November. On that ground, with three other boys, lives Giacomo Silenzi, Meredith's boyfriend, on 3 November he had told police: "Before leaving for Porto San Giorgio I gave the keys to my house asking Meredith to disinfect one of my two cats that had injured her ear. " On 6 November, the two keys were found in the chamber of Amanda Knox. Not a clue just because the room of Stephen, one of the three tenants of silence were discovered traces of blood. The four students have vowed to clean the stains left by the injured cat el 'entire house before leaving for vacation of the Bridge of the Dead. I do not know how to explain the traces of blood on the duvet of Stephen - said James Silenzi - just remember that the blood there 'was, and that Stephen had locked the room. " Those traces of blood could be part of the screening, according to investigators, enacted by Amanda and his accomplices to dribble suspects. Even these mysterious bloodstains are finished to the laboratory of the forensic team in Rome, where began the analysis of findings. The initial findings and observations were reviewed by the knife and shoes reminder. According to the claimant Maori and Brusco, the defenders of the young Pugliese, the first analysis did not found nothing incriminating. On November 7, but the experts of the Forensic Service had written: "By comparison, performed for overlapping / juxtaposition is evident that the traces are taken into consideration with the design (type and extent) of the sole of shoes bearing the Nike brand object of comparison . Yesterday in Perugia instead started the 'probative to search for tracks on' car and in the 'home of Sollecito and Lumumba in the room. The visit of Giuliano Mignini and whom also attended the lawyers of three defendants and their scientific and technical advice, continued late into the night. Sull 'Audi reminder, examined by forensic ultraviolet lamp and with Luminol, were detected eleven elements that will be analyzed in the laboratory. Of little help instead 's examination of the frames of the cameras square Grimana. And for the cameras of the parking lot next to Meredith's house, according to the Flying Squad's images do not allow to identify the person shooting. - From our MEO BRIDGE

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica ... scena.html

Now it is not absolutely clear from the article, but I would suggest Giacomo Silenzi was the source of the article's claim that the spare keys to his apartment were found in Amanda Knox's room. A claim, which I understand, has no basis in fact.

Come on.....is this really so complex? This is Italy, killing an unfaithful partner isn't really considered a crime over there.

So, littlegreyrabbit, you have a newspaper article (often the result of selective leaks by the police and often proven quite wrong later) claiming the keys were in Amanda's room. But do you have any actual testimony, court records, or witness statements under oath to confirm this? **holding my breath**
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Re: Downstairs Crime Scene

Postby Grayhawker » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:03 am

TruthMatters wrote:
schmidt53 wrote:
pmop57 wrote:
Donna wrote:
What was the reason for Guede to go the cottage in the first place? Not a date with Meredith. He was at the cottage before Meredith arrived home. The location of the cottage is not visible from the basketball court where he suppose to hang out. The road above the cottage leads to nowhere that he would be going to. He didn't run into Amanda/Raffaele at 11:30 pm. So what if he was at the parking garage breaking into cars? A thief is a thief. Its a slow night so he makes his way to the upper level of the parking garage. On google map there appears to be stairs going from the up level to the lower level. You can get a good view of the cottage from the upper level of the garage. Just a thought.


I believe that rudy went to the cottage because he knew the guys downstairs would be gone and that there were pot plants inside that he could steal. He might have also known that Meredith had their key because she was charged with watering the plants. He also knew the girls would have money in their place because rent was due. I find it VERY odd that kokomani just so happened to be there at the same time. He is a known drug dealer so it leads me to believe that he and rudy were either there together or had arranged to meet there.

Donna

kokomani - olive tosser? :jaw-dropping:
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Grayhawker » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:04 am

TruthMatters wrote:
littlegreyrabbit wrote:
You admit RG removed money from MK's purse, took her keys, and locked her door.

I do no such thing, I simply said one or more people broke in at night to inspect the scene.


But it was RG's fingerprints and DNA that was found on/in Meredith's purse so who else would have taken the money?

Which was also next to the bloody knife blade stain on the sheet that the murderer laid down?
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Re: Downstairs Crime Scene

Postby TruthMatters » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:04 pm

Grayhawker wrote:
TruthMatters wrote:
schmidt53 wrote:
pmop57 wrote:
Donna wrote:
What was the reason for Guede to go the cottage in the first place? Not a date with Meredith. He was at the cottage before Meredith arrived home. The location of the cottage is not visible from the basketball court where he suppose to hang out. The road above the cottage leads to nowhere that he would be going to. He didn't run into Amanda/Raffaele at 11:30 pm. So what if he was at the parking garage breaking into cars? A thief is a thief. Its a slow night so he makes his way to the upper level of the parking garage. On google map there appears to be stairs going from the up level to the lower level. You can get a good view of the cottage from the upper level of the garage. Just a thought.


I believe that rudy went to the cottage because he knew the guys downstairs would be gone and that there were pot plants inside that he could steal. He might have also known that Meredith had their key because she was charged with watering the plants. He also knew the girls would have money in their place because rent was due. I find it VERY odd that kokomani just so happened to be there at the same time. He is a known drug dealer so it leads me to believe that he and rudy were either there together or had arranged to meet there.

Donna

kokomani - olive tosser? :jaw-dropping:



Hi Grayhawker! kokomani was definitely lying in court - his lips were moving. How do you explain his presence at the scene and his "testimony" if he was not involved, or protecting someone he knows was?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Blaukslia » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:05 pm

None of this explains the 'clean up' of upstairs . I thought I saw a strap of the type used around an arm to administer drugs intravenously, left close to the armchair downstairs. It doesn't make sense why Rudy would break into the upstairs apartment to steal a key to enter by the door of the downstairs apartment.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby MichaelB » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:44 am

Blaukslia wrote:None of this explains the 'clean up' of upstairs . I thought I saw a strap of the type used around an arm to administer drugs intravenously, left close to the armchair downstairs. It doesn't make sense why Rudy would break into the upstairs apartment to steal a key to enter by the door of the downstairs apartment.


At what min/sec in the video is the strap so we can have a look? I don't think anyone has claimed Guede broke-in to steal the key to downstairs but that he went downstairs and changed pants. The attached image shows clothes tossed on the floor just like Filomena's room and the camera zooms in on what looks like blood.

Watch on youtube.com
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby pmop57 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:46 am

Court witnessing of Edgardo Giobbi, interesting read about the downstairs flat (from the fake wiki)

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/E ... y_(English)

GB:
Just to understand: a wound on the ear?
EG:
What I remember was said to me was that for many days there had been this cat that usually visited the house, and that they even left the window of the small bathroom open on purpose to allow it to enter, that it had a wound on its ear that was being treated and it seems to me that I remember that Meredith’s boyfriend at the time also said to me that he had given Meredith the task of treating that wound during the day[s] when he was not there. Now, objectively, I said to myself, “but how could it lose all that blood”.
GB:
That was the question that I wanted to ask you.
EG:
No, I asked myself, certainly. Because at least the blood on the duvet, to me it looked like so much.
GB:
You said to Dr Stefanoni “I would like to do these analyses on the lower storey”.
EG:
No, I said to her “you must do these tests for me immediately in order to check whether the blood on this duvet is the blood of the victim”, those were [my] words.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:52 am

Hi everybody. Newbie here.
What happened downstairs? A serious police cock-up, that’s what, and the evidence is in their videos.
Connecting the dots:

1] On 2 Nov, around 16.20 Zugarini tries to kick down the door. Napoleoni and Mignini are watching (important!) Zugarini inadvertently hits and smashes the glass. That’s not on purpose. They are a bunch of morons (I am going to substantiate that) but kicking-in a glass window is beyond dangerous. Besides, they do have hammers and such in Perugia (I’m going to prove that too)
16.29 Zugarini reaches inside, tries the handle but the door is locked. But it takes the police only 10 min to get in. Inside footage with MJplants starts around 16.40. How did they gain access?

2] The vid of 3 Nov, part 2 gives the answer. Starting at 18.23 there is one minute of footage that holds all the clues. The door lock is still in one piece. So they didn’t force the door open. Well, they tried, but it wasn’t successful. Eventually they used a key. There are actually three keys lying on the kitchen table (presumably belonging to the boys; one is missing)
But on 2 Nov, around 16.20, they didn’t have a key. That’s the whole point of kicking down a door. At that time the boys were still out of town. The police didn’t know that Meredith had a copy. The only way in was through the broken door pane. And that’s how they got inside. On 2 Nov there is just a hole in the glass. In the vid of 3 Nov the whole pane is gone. And look what’s on the table! A hammer (I said I would prove it) and a screwdriver. There are some glass fragments underneath (I can play that game too) The police must have put the tools there. Now, I can’t prove they used that hammer on the door pane, but it’s a tantalising clue. What else would they use a hammer for?

3] Back to 2 Nov. Between 16.29 and the start of the inside footage at 16.40, they remove the rest of the glass and climb in. Under the watchful eyes of Napoleoni and Mignini! (I told you it was important) There is no other explanation. The cameraman goes inside and I assume Zugarini is with him. You do not send in a cameraman all by himself when a killer might be hiding there (it seems they thought that a possibility; that’s why they went in)
There are just a few minutes of footage before the camera goes dark. The vid resumes about 2 hrs later (at 18.37) at the upstairs apartment. What happened during those 2 hrs? Why isn’t there any footage? Did they turn off the camera? Did a part of the recording disappear in some mysterious way? That we’ll never know. But what we do know is that they went in, had a look around and left. Probably the same way they entered.

4] And from the 3 Nov vid (part 2) we can infer some of the things they did while they were inside the downstairs apartment. They kicked in a bedroom door (starting at 18.32.27) Oh, and lookie here! Someone left a trail of glass shards in that same bedroom (same video, about a minute earlier, starting 18.30) And what do you know! There is a little sign there with a 3 on it. Wouldn’t this be the exhibit no. 3 that was never tested? Here, hiding in plain sight, we have the police cock-up and the reason they eventually abandoned the downstairs “crime scene”.
Those shards come from the broken door pane. (Transfer from upstairs, Filomena’s window is impossible. Just look at the size of the fragments.) That means a police person made that trail. Considering the size and the fact that they form a proper trail I’m quite certain they didn’t get there because some doofus got some glass on the soles of his white suit. The Polizia Scientifica agrees with me. After all they put that little sign with the no. 3 next to the trail. They didn’t know how it got there.
Zugarini of course would have had glass all over her clothes after her karate-kick mishap. Judging from the video she injured herself a bit on that occasion. But I don’t think that is the cause of the blood drops found at the downstairs apartment. Blood dripping from your leg goes into your sock, shoe. It takes a whole lot of dripping before a person’s shoe runneth over. I consider it more likely that she cut her hand while climbing through the door. (I exonerate the cameraman because he wouldn’t touch anything – re downstairs duvet. He was just holding a camera)

5] Conclusion. I can’t prove that Zugarini (or another cop) left the blood stains in the downstairs apartment. But everything else is fact. On 2 Nov the local police broke the glass, got in through the door pane, kicked down the bedroom door, left a trail of glass fragments. The next day the Polizia Scientifica didn’t know what had transpired. They found blood stains, and exhibit no. 3, the trail of glass. They started to investigate.
At some point, someone realized what was going on. Under the watchful eyes of Napoleoni and Mignini (important!) the local police had fucked up the downstairs “crime scene”. Did I use the word moron? Someone, somehow, persuaded Stefanoni to chalk the findings up to “cat-blood”. When that happened, the idea of an unbiased investigation was out of the window (if it ever existed). This is dietrologia to the T (D?) From that moment on Mignini, Napoleoni and Stefanoni were in cahoots together. Take one down and the others will follow.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Grayhawker » Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:33 am

So the police know something about "staged" break ins versus actual break ins? So it seems.

They were just a collection of keystone comedies all through that investigation.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Teddy » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:39 pm

Great post Holmes. There's definitely something not right about the downstairs scene. How a cat left blood on a light switch is a bit of a mystery!
Amanda Knox: "According to Mignini, we found Meredith at the villa and said, Hey, that stupid bitch. Let’s show Meredith. Let’s get her to play a sex game. I was horrified. Who thinks like that?".... indeed, who thinks like that?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:03 am

@ Grayhawker. I remember the keystone cops! Inspector Clouseau comes to mind as well.
@Teddy. Thanks. I appreciate that. It’s a bit unnerving to post your theory as a first time poster!
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Desert Fox » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:55 pm

The problem is that the Italian crime scene should have taken the crime scene apart cm by cm not whatever they did. . . .A good crime scene detective is almost an archaeologist especially with murders.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby erasmus44 » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:58 pm

Teddy wrote:Great post Holmes. There's definitely something not right about the downstairs scene. How a cat left blood on a light switch is a bit of a mystery!





This is not hard to understand. The cat probably touched its bleeding ear with its paw and then used its paw to turn on the lights. My cat does it all the time.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Purple » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:33 pm

I've always been confused about the downstairs apartment. It just seems like it would be too much of a coincidence if it wasn't related somehow.
Was their key with the keys that were taken after the murder? Or were they still upstairs somewhere?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Mafiabuster » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:50 am

Holmes wrote:
2] The vid of 3 Nov, part 2 gives the answer. Starting at 18.23 there is one minute of footage that holds all the clues. The door lock is still in one piece. So they didn’t force the door open. Well, they tried, but it wasn’t successful. Eventually they used a key. There are actually three keys lying on the kitchen table (presumably belonging to the boys; one is missing)


But wait a moment, how could the boys' keys be there? I thought there were out of town (they must have taken their keys with them.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:53 am

Mafiabuster wrote:
Holmes wrote:
2] The vid of 3 Nov, part 2 gives the answer. Starting at 18.23 there is one minute of footage that holds all the clues. The door lock is still in one piece. So they didn’t force the door open. Well, they tried, but it wasn’t successful. Eventually they used a key. There are actually three keys lying on the kitchen table (presumably belonging to the boys; one is missing)


But wait a moment, how could the boys' keys be there? I thought there were out of town (they must have taken their keys with them.


That vid was shot on 3 Nov, after the boys’ return on 2 Nov. Which in turn took place after the police broke in at 4.30 pm.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby diocletian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:22 am

Holmes wrote:
Mafiabuster wrote:
Holmes wrote:
2] The vid of 3 Nov, part 2 gives the answer. Starting at 18.23 there is one minute of footage that holds all the clues. The door lock is still in one piece. So they didn’t force the door open. Well, they tried, but it wasn’t successful. Eventually they used a key. There are actually three keys lying on the kitchen table (presumably belonging to the boys; one is missing)


But wait a moment, how could the boys' keys be there? I thought there were out of town (they must have taken their keys with them.


That vid was shot on 3 Nov, after the boys’ return on 2 Nov. Which in turn took place after the police broke in at 4.30 pm.


I think Exhibit 3, in Silenzi's room, is for a ring of red stuff (watery blood, I think) on the floor and not for glass.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:47 pm

diocletian wrote:I think Exhibit 3, in Silenzi's room, is for a ring of red stuff (watery blood, I think) on the floor and not for glass.


Crayon. The ring of red stuff is police crayon, delineating stuff they want to investigate.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby diocletian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:25 pm

Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:I think Exhibit 3, in Silenzi's room, is for a ring of red stuff (watery blood, I think) on the floor and not for glass.


Crayon. The ring of red stuff is police crayon, delineating stuff they want to investigate.


I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure? The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular. Further, what kind of idiots would use a red crayon? Also, the exhibit list/Report describes Exh. 3 as a sample of "presumed biological liquid from the floor", and not as glass. I always assumed that the cops were smart enough to know that they tracked the glass in there.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby diocletian » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:10 pm

Also, check out Exh. 7. It's shown twice and by comparing the two shots, it looks like it was a blood spot under the rug.

Any idea where (in what room) Exhibit 10 was located?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:57 am

diocletian wrote:I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure.

Some thoughts.

1] The downstairs apartment is hardly a pristine environment. Four guys and a couple of cats lived there. The armchair looks really battered. Who knows where they got it. It stands to reason that there are biological traces all over the place, perhaps even cat blood. There is no way of knowing.

2] The Polizia Scientifica seem to have renumbered their exhibits. First (as you can see in the video, starting 18.13) the traces on the steps go from 1 to 10. In the lab report all these traces are filed under 8, 9 and 10. Exhibit 10 being a trace just outside the kitchen door. I don’t know why they did this. Running out of signs perhaps? Deciding on the spot that these traces came from a common source? I’m not a forensic expert but as a common sense person I find this renumbering questionable.

3] Exhibit 3 and the ring of red stuff.
diocletian wrote: The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular.
Exactly. No splash of whatever substance could create such a line. A crayon could.

Scientific experiment:
    a] Get a crayon. (If you don’t have one, rob a toddler.) Draw a doodle on the kitchen floor.
    b] Get a sharp kitchen knife. Cut your finger. (It’s all for science) Hold your finger under the tap to get the right mixture of blood and water. Let it drip onto the kitchen floor. If you want you can try to drip-draw a pattern.
    c] See a doctor about that finger of yours.
    d] Buy the kid a brand new box of crayons. Apologize. Say you will never ever rob a toddler again.
    e] Compare your blood drip drawing on the kitchen floor with the red lines in the video. Notice the difference.
    f] Compare your crayon doodle with the crayon doodles in the police video. Notice how they are the same.
    g] In short: If it quacks like a crayon… :::lol:::
Silly experiments aside, it is quite possible they found a biological trace near that sign with a 3 on it. It is also possible, but unprovable, that it was left there by Zugarini or another police officer. What matters to me is that they treated the glass trail (delineating it with their red crayon) as something to be investigated. It also matters that they suppressed that trace. It proves to me that the Polizia Scientifica was in the dark about the police break-in a day earlier.

4] Exhibit 4 and 7. Thank you for pointing that one out to me. At 18.46 you can see:
    a] a washing line with laundry (to the left)
    b] an extension cord trap (front and center). An intruder would easily trip over the cord and bring down some items.
    c] the rug is creased in a way that suggests that someone lost her (his) footing.
It seems to me that Exhibit 7 is not underneath the rug but just next to it. I have a hunch that someone tripped over the cord and left some blood traces. I’m not sure though. Just :twocents: ½ cent.
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby diocletian » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:48 am

Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure.

Some thoughts.

Holmes wrote:1] The downstairs apartment is hardly a pristine environment. Four guys and a couple of cats lived there. The armchair looks really battered. Who knows where they got it. It stands to reason that there are biological traces all over the place, perhaps even cat blood. There is no way of knowing.


Well, right. But somebody was bleeding down there and that's too blood much for a cat. Getting a look at the egrams might help.

Holmes wrote:2] The Polizia Scientifica seem to have renumbered their exhibits. First (as you can see in the video, starting 18.13) the traces on the steps go from 1 to 10. In the lab report all these traces are filed under 8, 9 and 10. Exhibit 10 being a trace just outside the kitchen door. I don’t know why they did this. Running out of signs perhaps? Deciding on the spot that these traces came from a common source? I’m not a forensic expert but as a common sense person I find this renumbering questionable.


Very strange that the lightswitch also ended up as 10, of course. I agree that the renumbering is very strange.

Holmes wrote:3] Exhibit 3 and the ring of red stuff.
diocletian wrote: The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular.
Exactly. No splash of whatever substance could create such a line. A crayon could.


Not a splash. Previously bloody, but rinsed pants and shirt are bundled into a bedsheet, and the bedsheet is placed on the floor while the perp finds and puts on new pants. Pants which, incidentally, have a Chagall ticket in the pocket.

Holmes wrote:Silly experiments aside, it is quite possible they found a biological trace near that sign with a 3 on it. It is also possible, but unprovable, that it was left there by Zugarini or another police officer. What matters to me is that they treated the glass trail (delineating it with their red crayon) as something to be investigated. It also matters that they suppressed that trace. It proves to me that the Polizia Scientifica was in the dark about the police break-in a day earlier.


I agree that the glass is from the cops. Still not convinced about the "crayon". There is no evidence of crayon being used anywhere else.

Holmes wrote:4] Exhibit 4 and 7. Thank you for pointing that one out to me. At 18.46 you can see:
    a] a washing line with laundry (to the left)
    b] an extension cord trap (front and center). An intruder would easily trip over the cord and bring down some items.
    c] the rug is creased in a way that suggests that someone lost her (his) footing.
It seems to me that Exhibit 7 is not underneath the rug but just next to it. I have a hunch that someone tripped over the cord and left some blood traces. I’m not sure though. Just :twocents: ½ cent.


There's a different frame where the same spot is shown before the 7 marker is placed down. I think the rug is covering where marker 7 went.
diocletian
 
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Holmes » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:09 pm

diocletian wrote:
Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure.

Some thoughts.

Holmes wrote:1] The downstairs apartment is hardly a pristine environment. Four guys and a couple of cats lived there. The armchair looks really battered. Who knows where they got it. It stands to reason that there are biological traces all over the place, perhaps even cat blood. There is no way of knowing.


Well, right. But somebody was bleeding down there and that's too blood much for a cat. Getting a look at the egrams might help.

Holmes wrote:2] The Polizia Scientifica seem to have renumbered their exhibits. First (as you can see in the video, starting 18.13) the traces on the steps go from 1 to 10. In the lab report all these traces are filed under 8, 9 and 10. Exhibit 10 being a trace just outside the kitchen door. I don’t know why they did this. Running out of signs perhaps? Deciding on the spot that these traces came from a common source? I’m not a forensic expert but as a common sense person I find this renumbering questionable.


Very strange that the lightswitch also ended up as 10, of course. I agree that the renumbering is very strange.

Holmes wrote:3] Exhibit 3 and the ring of red stuff.
diocletian wrote: The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular.
Exactly. No splash of whatever substance could create such a line. A crayon could.


Not a splash. Previously bloody, but rinsed pants and shirt are bundled into a bedsheet, and the bedsheet is placed on the floor while the perp finds and puts on new pants. Pants which, incidentally, have a Chagall ticket in the pocket.

Holmes wrote:Silly experiments aside, it is quite possible they found a biological trace near that sign with a 3 on it. It is also possible, but unprovable, that it was left there by Zugarini or another police officer. What matters to me is that they treated the glass trail (delineating it with their red crayon) as something to be investigated. It also matters that they suppressed that trace. It proves to me that the Polizia Scientifica was in the dark about the police break-in a day earlier.


I agree that the glass is from the cops. Still not convinced about the "crayon". There is no evidence of crayon being used anywhere else.

Holmes wrote:4] Exhibit 4 and 7. Thank you for pointing that one out to me. At 18.46 you can see:
    a] a washing line with laundry (to the left)
    b] an extension cord trap (front and center). An intruder would easily trip over the cord and bring down some items.
    c] the rug is creased in a way that suggests that someone lost her (his) footing.
It seems to me that Exhibit 7 is not underneath the rug but just next to it. I have a hunch that someone tripped over the cord and left some blood traces. I’m not sure though. Just :twocents: ½ cent.


There's a different frame where the same spot is shown before the 7 marker is placed down. I think the rug is covering where marker 7 went.


Okay. What's your point? Srsly
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby Mafiabuster » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:14 pm

diocletian wrote:
Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:I think Exhibit 3, in Silenzi's room, is for a ring of red stuff (watery blood, I think) on the floor and not for glass.


Crayon. The ring of red stuff is police crayon, delineating stuff they want to investigate.


I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure? The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular. Further, what kind of idiots would use a red crayon? Also, the exhibit list/Report describes Exh. 3 as a sample of "presumed biological liquid from the floor", and not as glass. I always assumed that the cops were smart enough to know that they tracked the glass in there.


Errrmm... You do realise we are talking about the Perugia police?
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Re: What Happened Downstairs?

Postby diocletian » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:25 pm

Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:
Holmes wrote:
diocletian wrote:I've heard that suggested before, but are you sure?

Yes, I’m sure.

Some thoughts.

Holmes wrote:1] The downstairs apartment is hardly a pristine environment. Four guys and a couple of cats lived there. The armchair looks really battered. Who knows where they got it. It stands to reason that there are biological traces all over the place, perhaps even cat blood. There is no way of knowing.


Well, right. But somebody was bleeding down there and that's too blood much for a cat. Getting a look at the egrams might help.

Holmes wrote:2] The Polizia Scientifica seem to have renumbered their exhibits. First (as you can see in the video, starting 18.13) the traces on the steps go from 1 to 10. In the lab report all these traces are filed under 8, 9 and 10. Exhibit 10 being a trace just outside the kitchen door. I don’t know why they did this. Running out of signs perhaps? Deciding on the spot that these traces came from a common source? I’m not a forensic expert but as a common sense person I find this renumbering questionable.


Very strange that the lightswitch also ended up as 10, of course. I agree that the renumbering is very strange.

Holmes wrote:3] Exhibit 3 and the ring of red stuff.
diocletian wrote: The "ring" in Silenzi's room is huge and irregular.
Exactly. No splash of whatever substance could create such a line. A crayon could.


Not a splash. Previously bloody, but rinsed pants and shirt are bundled into a bedsheet, and the bedsheet is placed on the floor while the perp finds and puts on new pants. Pants which, incidentally, have a Chagall ticket in the pocket.

Holmes wrote:Silly experiments aside, it is quite possible they found a biological trace near that sign with a 3 on it. It is also possible, but unprovable, that it was left there by Zugarini or another police officer. What matters to me is that they treated the glass trail (delineating it with their red crayon) as something to be investigated. It also matters that they suppressed that trace. It proves to me that the Polizia Scientifica was in the dark about the police break-in a day earlier.


I agree that the glass is from the cops. Still not convinced about the "crayon". There is no evidence of crayon being used anywhere else.

Holmes wrote:4] Exhibit 4 and 7. Thank you for pointing that one out to me. At 18.46 you can see:
    a] a washing line with laundry (to the left)
    b] an extension cord trap (front and center). An intruder would easily trip over the cord and bring down some items.
    c] the rug is creased in a way that suggests that someone lost her (his) footing.
It seems to me that Exhibit 7 is not underneath the rug but just next to it. I have a hunch that someone tripped over the cord and left some blood traces. I’m not sure though. Just :twocents: ½ cent.


There's a different frame where the same spot is shown before the 7 marker is placed down. I think the rug is covering where marker 7 went.


Okay. What's your point? Srsly


read the whole thing. the quote function got screwed up
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