General Discussion Advocate Thread

General Discussion Advocate Thread

Postby Bruce Fischer » Tue May 25, 2010 1:52 pm

This forum was created for you and I to build together. Many people have worked very hard to prove the innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Now it is our job to get the word out to the masses. Let's work together to find new and better ways to spread the word about this injustice. Let's work together to bring many more people to this forum. We need more experts that are willing to discuss this case. We need to seek them out. We need to bring them here. If we put our minds to it, we can and will make a difference. Amanda and Raffaele have been wrongly convicted. They need your help. Let's get to work.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Pat » Wed May 26, 2010 11:24 am

Great job Bruce!

One of the things I think we should work on is a form "Letter to the Editor" that alerts the public to this case and asks for the State Department to get involved. Of course that last part should be approved by the family/lawyers.

We could then work on sending the form letter out all over the country to newspapers big and small. We could send the letter by e-mail for free. A cheap and easy nationwide campaign.

The big challenge will be to assemble a list of newspapers and e-mails. Could take a lot of phone calls too, to make sure letters can be sent that way.

Just an idea.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Pat » Wed May 26, 2010 11:41 am

We should think about whether sections of this members forum should be Closed to Public View at some point after we have a volume of people. It needs to be open now so that people will join. But at some point at least some of the forum sections should be closed to public view so that we don't give our strategies away to the other side.

Perhaps the main discussion section could remain open for non-confidential discussion. But then certain more sensitive sections that might be created could be closed to public view, so that only members can read those sections.

I also think each person admitted to the closed members sections should be required to verify and certify which side of the case that person is really on. We don't want the other side admitted to the closed forum sections.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Pat » Wed May 26, 2010 12:27 pm

Come on folks, sign up! There is a whole world out there beyond cyberspace that needs to be brought into this discussion. All of us have ideas, all of us have "contacts", all of us have resources. If we pool all that together, and come up with some real world strategies, we could end up increasing our chances of really making a difference in the outcome of this case.

We need to do some brainstorming for ideas. We need to get organized. We need to roll up our sleeves and get things done beyond the keyboards.

Please step forward to help Amanda and Raffaele. They are counting on all of us. Register today!!
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby beau336 » Wed May 26, 2010 1:13 pm

Great job Bruce this is what we need to set Amanda and Rafalle free! People that now that they are innocent neet to come here and post so people can see the real truth and not all the false stuff. The more people that can get the word out the better. Thank you Beau
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Kevad » Wed May 26, 2010 1:28 pm

I am willing to send many e-mails and letters to all we decide should get them, but agree we should make sure it is OK with Amanda, her family and her lawyers.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed May 26, 2010 3:15 pm

Injustice in Perugia has a form letter that we have been sending out. We can compile a list of addresses and emails on this forum and we can send the letter to everyone on the contact list. I think we should send personal letters also. I posted a media list in the "Contact the Media" section. I also added a section for adding new contacts. Anyone that has a new contact should add it there. I will add it to the main contact list. It is very difficult to get any response from the media. We need to keep hitting them until they feel it!
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed May 26, 2010 3:27 pm

As we move forward, the general discussion thread will probably be the only section of this forum that is open to the public. I really want to encourage registration. I would like input on this of course. We will have to see how everyone feels about certain aspects of the forum being public. This forum has nothing to hide. We are speaking the truth. We just need to avoid any unnecessary distraction. Anyone that registers for this forum that is found to be a guilter will be eliminated. There are plenty of places to debate this case including the Injustice blog.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Jazz » Wed May 26, 2010 5:40 pm

I'm very happy to see the forum up and running. Great work, Bruce!

And I agree entirely that the forum should be only for those who are legitimately on the side of establishing the innocence of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito and not for debating those who would prefer to see them languish in prison for crimes that they did not commit. There are plenty of other places for those debates, and this place should be for supportive actions, not destructive ones.

ETA: I'm Colleen on the Injustice blog, by the way. I just picked the user-name Jazz rather than my real name for the forum because I'm used to having a nickname. :)
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby RayTurner » Wed May 26, 2010 6:21 pm

Looking good!
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby ajackson » Wed May 26, 2010 7:02 pm

Very nice work, Bruce! I don't mind debating people with wrong views of the case, if they are sincere. This is the only way we can counter the wrong thinking that has existed in many places from the beginning, which wrong thinking was caused and nurtured by lies, misinformation and scandalous leaks in the gutterpress. I do believe there should be a zero tolerance policy for guilter behaviour. I don't even approve of posts like "she's innocent, get over it." I prefer to see the reasons why someone believes in Amanda's innocence.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Jason » Wed May 26, 2010 7:46 pm

Hi, everyone! I uploaded a sample letter for both press and governments into the Express Your Concern area. Let me know if you have any feedback on it or go ahead and start using it.

Letter to the Press
http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/ ... s-t29.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Letter to Your Government
http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/ ... s-t30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed May 26, 2010 8:00 pm

[quote="ajackson"]Very nice work, Bruce! I don't mind debating people with wrong views of the case, if they are sincere. This is the only way we can counter the wrong thinking that has existed in many places from the beginning, which wrong thinking was caused and nurtured by lies, misinformation and scandalous leaks in the gutterpress. I do believe there should be a zero tolerance policy for guilter behaviour. I don't even approve of posts like "she's innocent, get over it." I prefer to see the reasons why someone believes in Amanda's innocence.[/quote]

You make excellent points. I actually believe that comments like "she's innocent, get over it" actually hurt the cause. Hopefully, with intelligent discussion, this forum will give people the proper information to leave informative comments online about the case.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Sarah » Wed May 26, 2010 10:38 pm

Pat,

Jason already has the letter writing campaign started.

Bruce,

This is looking great. I'm really proud of you !! It is nice seeing so many people involved. It would be great if we could make our efforts in Italy stronger. It there a way to add an Italian speaking section to this forum ?
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Wed May 26, 2010 10:54 pm

[quote="Sarah"]Pat,

Jason already has the letter writing campaign started.

Bruce,

This is looking great. I'm really proud of you !! It is nice seeing so many people involved. It would be great if we could make our efforts in Italy stronger. It there a way to add an Italian speaking section to this forum ?[/quote]

Thank you Sarah!

I think you make a great point about making our efforts stronger in Italy. I am hoping that this forum will attract a couple of good translators. It is a very time consuming process and we could really use more help in this area.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Thu May 27, 2010 1:54 pm

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for registering me. Since I am on the road, my participation will be minimal, but not my belief in this cause.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Pat » Thu May 27, 2010 2:48 pm

It looks like a lot of people are signing up! This is a great beginning for a new forum.

Now is the time for everyone to register so that we can start brainstorming about goals, stategies, policies, ect.. Come on folks, lets get everyone registered and get started!! :D
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby suzeerose » Thu May 27, 2010 6:59 pm

Thank you for initiating this forum. Now that I've become informed enough about Amanda's case to know that an injustice has been done, I've wanted to help in any way possible. It is a frustrating endeavor.

I received two letters back from Maria Cantwell, our state senator, in support of Amanda. I've heard nothing back from the State Department, and Senator Patty Murray has been mute, even after three emails and a telephone call to her office. I even saw a letter of apology from Seattle to Perugia because the naming of a park in our city has been stalled because of the protest... outrageous...

There has been so much silence... no protest from University of Washington, nor the city of Seattle, nor from her high school, Seattle Prep. Are people uninformed? I had thought that even a campus campaign to get students involved in protesting the injustice would be appropriate.

I would love to find ways to get the message out... even ads for this site, and am open to suggestions
best wishes
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Jason » Thu May 27, 2010 10:57 pm

Suzerose, I share your concern. I sent mail to Murray -- she hopes I'm enjoying living in my town. I sent mail to Cantwell -- she shares my concern. Not very encouraging.

I contacted the International Studies group at UW, and while they're very concerned about what happened, and they are working with Amanda to continue her studies to get her degree, they feel it was an "isolated incident" and are not willing to do anything more about it. Frankly, I think it is reprehensible and irresponsible that the school is not stepping up more and asking WTF to the college and government in Perugia. If they are willing to send these kids overseas and not willing to help them out when they are in trouble, they have no right having the program in the first place.

Her high school did have a fund raising basketball game last year. I was actually surprised at how they were slammed in the press for supporting her. It's a travesty. Not many people want to really look at the facts here and do what's right.

That's whay I'm glad you're here -- that we're all here. We WILL make a difference. Amanda and Raf WILL come home soon.

Jason
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby beau336 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:57 pm

I was thinking mabe having brochures we can order and put them by peoples front door so they can see the true facts about the case. I don't know if thats legal, but I think that would get alot of peoples attention,and they will see what an injustice is being done. Thanks Beau
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:02 am

[quote="beau336"]I was thinking of maybe having brochures we can order and put them by peoples front door so they can see the true facts about the case. I don't know if that's legal, but I think that would get a lot of peoples attention,and they will see what an injustice is being done. Thanks Beau[/quote]

I think it would be a great idea to create literature that can be handed out. I do believe that the laws in the US prohibit you from putting anything into a mailbox. If you are discussing the case with friends it is always nice to have something to give them. We want to stay professional of course. The guilters are always trying to throw us into a conspiracy theory category. Our position is a very logical one. Don't be discouraged by negative remarks. Those same people are going home to look up the websites you mentioned to them. Sometimes we get through to people and we don't even realize it.

Please post anything that you have created in the "Print Articles, Fliers etc..." section for others to print out and use.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:02 am

I am now traveling - but will do this when I get home.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby komponisto » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:39 pm

Hello all!

I'm posting this message because, shortly after registering, I received an email expressing concern that I hadn't posted yet! Obviously I want to keep my account active, so....here I am.

To introduce myself: I'm the author of [url=http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_knox_test_how_an_hour_on_the_internet/]this post[/url] on [url=http://lesswrong.com/]Less Wrong[/url]. Needless to say, I'm a passionate supporter of Amanda and Raffaele.

Thanks to Bruce for superb work on the Injustice in Perugia site, and for creating this forum! I look forward to participating.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Linds1 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:51 pm

Hello everyone!

I received the same e-mail as komponisto and want to introduce myself as well :) I have posted in the Murder In Italy book section. I was wondering if there could be a section of 'Getting To Know One Another' or would people not be inclined to have that? I recently became a supporter of Amanda and Raffaele after reading said book, and have quickly devoured information in the support of them. Look forward to getting to know everyone :)
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Jason » Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:56 pm

Hi, Linds! Thanks so much for joining our cause to help bring Amanda and Raffaele home!
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Linds1 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:04 pm

You're welcome! :) Thank you!
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:22 am

The forum software is set up to sent those messages automatically. We're not trying to put pressure on you, promise! With that said, we are happy to hear from you. Please join in on the discussion.

komponisto, I will go check out the Less Wrong post now. Thank you for the link.

Linds, we can create the section 'Getting To Know One Another' and people who would like to participate can join in. Many people would like to keep their private information offline. I understand and agree with those concerns. I think your section idea could be a place for people to discuss their personal reasons for getting involved.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Linds1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:16 am

Hi Bruce! Thanks so much; no pressure or worries from my end. I'm very much in agreement when it comes to keeping our private information offline! :)
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:06 pm

I think getting to know each other is a good idea. I am a history teacher at a private school in Hawaii, and advisor of the Amnesty International club. Like everyone here, Amanda and Raffeale's situation, like the hikers in Iran, greatly troubles me. Both situations are extremely cruel.

Right now I am traveling, and my participation will be sporadic until Aug. When I planned this trip last Sept. with a friend, Italy was already included. Now Perugia has been added to our itinerary. I have contacted Frank Sfarzo of Perugia Shock, and if he has time we will meet.

I hope no one finds this strange or morbid. Having followed this case for so long. I need to see the places I have been reading about. As a history teacher, travel is my hobby. My friend has no interest in the case, but understands. Ironically, she is a middle school math teacher.

In Aug, I will be back regularly, doing all I can to help. I can envision this nightmare happening to one of my own students. Therefore, it is very real and personal for me. My Amnesty club will again involved. Anyway, I hope this lets folks know a little more about myself.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby ajackson » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:46 pm

I haven't posted my background in this thread, so here goes. I am a practicing lawyer in Manitoba, Canada. I have been in private practice for over 20 years and run my own law firm. My url is http://www.ajaxlaw.ca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . This is my third career, after banking and my first career, as a university-trained professional musician. My current law practice consists largely of commercial work. I have been doing less and less criminal and family law for a couple of years. We no longer have a Court of Queen's Bench hearing centre in our town (and as I have been getting older,) the travel has become an issue, particularly in winter. I had a strong interest in human rights as a young man and belonged to several groups. I distinctly recall the Karla Faye Tucker case from that era in my life. Then, of course, for several years I was wholly engaged in my career and raising a family. Now with this case and some others (such as Mariatu Kamara, Dr. Halima Bashir, Mende Nazir, the hikers in Iran, etc.,) I have rediscovered the passion for justice and human rights that was subordinated for several years. I firmly believe that compassionate people must speak up in opposition to brutality and persecution. It is simply the right thing to do. Now I simply cannot ignore injustice. I find I must limit my causes, as it exhausts me like never before and I don't want to weaken my efforts by spreading them too thin. My wife shares my interest in this case in particular. We have traveled over the years. We particularly liked the UK, France and Italy. My wife wanted to send our son to Italy, but in light of the treatment of Amanda, neither of us will return ourselves, much less place our family at risk.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby peter » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:23 pm

I am new to this forum but wanted to help it grow.

I am sorry the young girl lost her life but I am convinced that Amanda and Raffele did not do this. I have opinons as to who did.

I have been extremely concerned about this case and the plight of Amanda and Raffale. I am a New Jersey Father of two boys. My eldest just finished a semester in Rome Italy. I know that country well having lived in Florence in my youth at the age of 21 and 24,also semesters abroad. . I also worked for an italian company in NYC and traveled back and forth for a number of years in my 30's to Arrezzo just North of perugia

Amanda and Raffaelle are my sons age and he and his freinds just finished their junior year/semester abroad. I was in Italy in January and then again in March. I thought of Amanda when the train passed Perugia.


My Florentine freinds are convinced of Amanda's guilt. These are educated, professional but provincial people. I had to stop our conversations on the subject least I become upset. However I have thought alot about the case and alot about the court of public opinion and the effect of the media on our own convictions.

The Italians are a wonderful people not known for being mean or necessarily injustice. It was a
jury in a courtroom that convicted Amanda and Raffele. It was prosecutor who unfairly tried them.
Please everyone read 'The Monster of florence" to see what the Prosecuter is about

I myself who was completely convinced of the innocence , thought twice when the judge thought that Amanda and Raffele were perhaps present in another room but not involved.. How he could make that supposition based on the lack of physical evidence I do not know.. but again.. reported in the media..ones quick response is.. ah perhaps..
again no evidence.. court of public opinion.. Lynch Mob

I hope the appeal process moves the case to Rome or Milan.. major cities with less provincial citzens.

I hope she is home for christmas.

hearing her audio account was heartbreaking
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Kevad » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:41 am

Those of you who missed or would like to rewatch it the Oprah show is rebroadcasting the Amanda Knox story today.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby ajackson » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:43 pm

I have a son who is around Amanda's age. I can't imagine him going through what Amanda is going through, nor can I imagine my wife and I going through what Amanda's parents are going through. It would still be sad and tragic if they were guilty. It is beyond horror that Amanda is innocent and they must go through this!
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby ajackson » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:44 pm

Welcome peter. The efforts of everyone are urgently needed to bring the truth of this horrible injustice to light.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby johnwinters » Thu Jun 24, 2010 6:22 pm

Hi.
I am quite new to this site but I really appreciate it a lot. I wrote direct to the Friends of Amanda site a long time ago and explained to them who I was and that I was keen to help in any way I could but received no reply. I assumed then that they just wanted people like me to go throught the motions, writing to politicians and relevant institutions.
But then once I had actually done this, I was back to square one and had to resort to comments blogs in online articles to express my dissatisfaction with Amanda's plight and try to convince others of her innocence. Just a few weeks ago I wrote to the awesome teatro33 who posted fantastic videos on You Tube like the one showing the reality of the bathroom condition which Amanda actually encountered on November 2nd. I had mentioned to teatro33 how helpless I felt at not being able to do more to help Amanda and teatro33 agreed, all that seemed possible to do was just sit tight and pray etc.
Not being particularly computer literate or capable of doing anything near creating a website myself, I was thwarted in that direction also. And then suddenly, along comes Injustice in Perugia, just what the doctor ordered!!
Thank you.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby McJustice » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:11 am

Hi John, welcome to the site. It has been rewarding, humbling and very encouraging to be a part of what all the people here and on other related sites/groups are doing... what has been pulled together since the conclusion of the outrageous and unjust trial is at testament to what we can do as a group and there is much more that will come out of this... people have their own personal related projects going and we learn from each other as we go and it all adds up.
I am in awe of what people have done so far and the dedication and very glad to be at least a small part of the effort. The groundswell of people who care and want to add their voices and input has been building and will continue to build. It may be a long haul, I hope not, but everyone is prepared to stay with it as long as it takes. I hope the appeal is short and frees them both.... but we know how stubborn and proud Italian justice is so we can only hope there is a face saving formula that is also JUST that they can assemble that clears Amanda and Raffaele entirely. And anything that we can add to the collective public awareness here and in Italy that can expedite justifies anything and everything to spread the word in a responsible and effective way that we can do. As you are well aware, our approach has always been the high road with openness and the facts on our side and compared to the mean-spirited character of the "Guilters" who almost make our case all by themselves.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby PhanuelB » Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:45 am

Peter:

Great to have you with us. Do you speak Italian well enough to provide professional quality Italian-English translation? While no translation of the 427 page Motivation document exists, we have been able to OCR and google translate it. Google translate does not work particularly well with Italian but it's very helpful in identifying the interesting parts. It would be way too much work for one volunteer to translate the entire document, but it would be helpful if qualified people could do a paragraph here or there. Alternatively feel free to read the documents in Italian and provide quality translations of sections that might be of interest to the rest of us. Here is a paragraph from 381 of the motivation document that I believe to be important.

Secondo quanto si è già avuto modo di evidenziare non si ravvisa la necessità
quale richiesta e definita dagli artt. 523 e 507 cpp per dispone l'assunzione di
nuove prove. Si richiama al riguardo quanto si è sul punto precedentemente
osservato; con specifico riferimento alle macchie rinvenute sulla federa dei
cuscino delle quali ha fatto particolare menzione la difesa Sollecito in sede di
discussione e nella relativa memoria illustrativa, va osservato quanto segue:
anche ad an-mettere la natura spermatica di tali macchie, la relativa indagine
genetica non consentirebbe la loro datazione in genere e, in particolare, non
consentirebbe di stabilire che furono apposte nella notte in cui Meredith fu
uccisa. Essendo inoltre emerso che Meredith aveva una vita sessuale attiva e
che talora aveva rapporti nella propria camera (cfr. sul punto le dichiarazioni
dei suo ragazzo Giacomo. Silenzi) tale indagine, oltre a non rivestire il carattere
della assoluta necessità per l'impossibilità di datazione (cfr. su tale aspetto
quanto hanno illustrato gli esperti di genetica), potrebbe fornire un esito del
tutto irrilevante anche ad ammettere la natura spermatica delle macchie
medesime e si presenta, pertanto, come attività meramente esplorativa, non
consentita in questa fase processuale perché priva del requisito dell'assoluta
necessità invece richiesto.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Bruce Fischer » Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:31 am

johnwinters,

Welcome to the group. We have an excellent group of people here and I am glad you found us. I have seen many of your comments online. You do an excellent job. Groups like this one will continue to grow until this injustice is corrected. I am always open to any advice or criticism when it comes to the Injustice website or this forum. All Ideas should be spoken about openly here. Thank you for everything you do. Thank you for joining!

Bruce
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Kevad » Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:42 pm

Just a reminder, try and send Amanda your birthday card by today or tomorrow to make it in time for her 23rd birthday on July 09, 2010. I am sure it helps her, and it sends a message to those holding her in prison. It costs 98 cents from the USA and takes from 5 to 10 business days for delivery. I think it would be great if she got hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands!!!! Send em, and get others to do so now!
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Targeted Exposure of this Web Site

Postby glloyd11 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:02 am

I was thinking that in addition to the keywords already embedded on the pages of this site for the search engines, the team could add "Perugia", "Perugia vacations", "Italian Vacations", "Study in Italy", etc so that this site pops up as people plan for these types of things. We may enlighten some folks but also discourage them from visiting in an effort to hurt their tourist trade and make this a Perugian problem.
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Re: Targeted Exposure of this Web Site

Postby ajackson » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:45 pm

[quote="glloyd11"]I was thinking that in addition to the keywords already embedded on the pages of this site for the search engines, the team could add "Perugia", "Perugia vacations", "Italian Vacations", "Study in Italy", etc so that this site pops up as people plan for these types of things. We may enlighten some folks but also discourage them from visiting in an effort to hurt their tourist trade and make this a Perugian problem.[/quote]

Good idea. Possibly some keywords that would catch "study in Perugia or Italy" as well.
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Re: Targeted Exposure of this Web Site

Postby Michael » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:26 am

[quote="glloyd11"]I was thinking that in addition to the keywords already embedded on the pages of this site for the search engines, the team could add "Perugia", "Perugia vacations", "Italian Vacations", "Study in Italy", etc so that this site pops up as people plan for these types of things. We may enlighten some folks but also discourage them from visiting in an effort to hurt their tourist trade and make this a Perugian problem.[/quote]

Please keep in mind that the Seattle Sister City organization attended the Sister City Fair this June 16th to 20th. The mayor of Seattle has told the mayor of Perugia everything is fine between the cities. The U.S. Ambassador told the mayors that the State Dept. feels Amanda was treated fairly, and her rights were not violated.

The members of the Seattle Delegation, who I spoke with extensively, are utterly disinterested in Amanda and the case. Overall, they were annoyed I asked so many questions. Except for one member, theý really didn't seem to care.

Perugia now feels this is a federal problem, and no longer has anything to do with the city. Everything rests on the Appeals Court, and if they feel outside pressure and intimidation, it could backfire very badly.

The case is worthless, and Amanda's best hopes lie with the Appeals Court seeing this - nothing else.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby RayTurner » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:58 pm

Hey Michael, when you post your thing about Rudy's friend, what thread are you planning on posting it in? I've been on the lookout but am worried I'll miss it when you do post it.--Ray
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby PaulTC » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:22 am

Hi Michael,

I was dismayed to hear the Ambassador characterized the trial is fair, particularly since I have heard from several sources that the U.S. government doesn't believe it was--that the Embassy has been helpful behind the scenes.

How does one explain the attitude of the Seattle delegation? Is it just typical Italophile/expat b.s.? Perhaps the member that was somewhat sympathetic can be lobbied gently.

Can any of you Seattleites tell me why the Seattle Times has been so out to lunch on this case?
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:40 am

Hey Ray and Paul,

Right now I'm using hotel computers, and folks are often wating, so I will not post the conversation with Guede's friend for awhile. However, I will post it as a separate topic in Whats on your mind, so everyone will see it.

I was quite dismayed by the lack of interest and concern the Seattle folks at the fair showed for Amanda. They sat in their booth in Plaza Italia, and just chatted up the Perugians, letting them know the relationship was good, and encouraging tourism, in both directions.

Not sure when I will be back on line, but will post details on everthing.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby glo gonz » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:38 am

I feel so hopeless with the attitude of our government on this case. It makes me physically sick . I have written to everyone i can think of. I can't understand the attitude of the Seattle delegation and the Ambassador. What else can we do to help Amanda and Raffaele ?
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby MikeyT » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:51 pm

Hey Bruce
This is to all of my fellow forum members.
Firtly I would like to say thank you Bruce for having this forum.
I have read several books about this case and I was most impressed with Candace Dempsey's book.
Her's is the most insightful as she covers the case with an open mind.
I read the drivel that Barbie Nadeau wrote and I call it a book of fiction.
And then there is the book written by John Kerchers colleages.
This one was so biased it was sickening.
In Nadeau's book of fiction she even goes so far as to refer to Mignini as quote "a teddy bear".
I realize she is married with children that is why I find her infatuation of Mignini so sickening.
It borders on a school girl crush.
Jon's colleages are also biased ,but I think it is because they want to impress him and his loved ones.
They even had the help of a clearly biased retired Carabinieri cop to back up thier bogus claims.
As if he would be unbiased against his own beloved fellow police officers.
The list of garbage goes on and on,but it is tedious and not worth the time to type it all up.
It would take days anyway.
We know that Rafaele was on his computer,but because of the incompetent police his hard drive was destroyed.
Mignini lauded Stefanoni's DNA test as 100% correct,but we know she was told by her machines that the test would be flawed,but she did them anyway.
Talk about manufacturing eveidence.
The witnesses cannot not be believed because of thier conflicting statements,but Mignini again presented them as irrefutable evidence of his theory.
And speaking of theory Nadeau suggest her own in chapter 8 of her book of fiction which is laughable.
The case is open and shut no one was there except Rudy Geude.

The case against Amanda and Rafaele is 100% pure BS dreamed up by Mignini with the help of John Kercher's coleages,Nadeau, and Stefanoni.

So the question is this.
Were Amanda and Rafaele railroaded?

The answer is..... A resounding HELL YES!
As always thanks Bruce
Sincerely,
Michael Taylor
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:25 am

I just wrote a couple of replies to your blogs. The destroying of the hard drive is the most powerful point for the reversal of the conviction on appeal. When Raffaele handed over his computer, knowing it would prove both of them innocent, he made a tragic error. Their should have been a lawyer present.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby mdkrom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:03 am

Many of you will have noticed an article in todays Sunday Express in the UK. It is based on the OGGI interview and as such makes the same mistake as the daily Mail in that it attributes the interview to Amanda and not to her mother. However it is actually rather sympathetic. It does not mention anywhere the (wrong) evidence used to find her guilty. It does contain important information to the general public about how she is coping with being wrongfully imprisoned including details of her being a spiritual person who gains strength from her catholic faith which is important to any potentail Italian jury.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby Michael » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:30 am

Here it is.

AMANDA KNOX: I DIDN'T KILL MEREDITH KERCHER

Amanda Knox was found guilty of the murder of Meredith Kercher but says she did not kill her
Sunday July 18,2010
By Bob Graham AMANDA KNOX has spoken of the frustration of fighting to clear her name and the ordeal of her life in prison.

The American student also revealed for the first time how she draws strength from the hundreds of letters of support addressed to her each month, in particular those from former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, who is in a separate prison.

“We often write to each other, we give each other strength,” Knox said. “We have ended up in a surreal affair that we still don’t understand but at least it unites us. The affection remains from the love we had.”

She insisted she was innocent of the murder of her British flat-mate Meredith Kercher and added: “Here in jail I have understood that sometimes bad things happen to good people. I am in a situation that I can’t explain and at times not understand. It’s as if it is happening to someone else.

‘It’s hard to accept Meredith is dead and I am accused of killing her. It’s like it’s happening to someone else’‘I go regularly to Mass in prison’‘People tell me not to give up’

“I find it really hard to accept that my friend Meredith is dead and I am accused of killing her. It’s really hard for me and, at times, the whole thing is much bigger than me.”

Eight months ago Knox was found guilty of the murder and sexual assault of Meredith, from Coulsdon, Surrey, and sentenced to 26 years in jail. Sollecito, a 26-year-old student, was found guilty on the same charges and sentenced to 25 years.

A third defendant, small-time drug dealer and drifter Rudy Guede, was found guilty in a separate trial but had his original 30-year sentence reduced to 16 years on appeal.

Meredith was found half naked and with her throat cut in her bedroom at the house she shared with Knox in the Italian hilltop town of Perugia in November 2007.

Knox’s defence team are considering an application for her to be freed on “home release”, a common practice in Italy, to await the appeal case which is due to be heard in late October. Her family and lawyers were able to demonstrate they had taken a residence in Perugia and had surrendered Knox’s passport to the Italian authorities.

The previous application, made before the original trial began, was turned down because she was considered a “flight risk”.

She said: “Anyone who might think I would leave the country doesn’t know me or understand how important it is for me not just to be acquitted but to be fully cleared of these accusations. It is so important and I want to be here to fight to prove I was not involved in this murder.”

Knox spoke of her life in the prison and how she organises yoga and English classes for her fellow inmates. “I go regularly to Mass,” she said. “I am a very spiritual person and I need these moments. I also play guitar and sing.”

For several months Knox had a part-time job in the prison as the grocery girl, taking orders from other inmates for small personal items which she would then buy from the prison shop and deliver.

Most of Knox’s prison time is spent reading and studying. She is continuing her Washington University degree in Italian and creative writing via a correspondence course. “My professors are amazing,” she added. “I’m so thankful for their support.”

Last month Mafia supergrass Luciano Aviello claimed his brother Antonio was Meredith’s killer and had confessed to him, even giving him the murder weapon and a set of keys from Meredith’s house to hide.

The revelation will form part of Knox’s appeal and she said: “I was aware of this and I have been kept informed about it. When all my cellmates heard the news they hugged me and said: ‘Now you will be freed.’

“But I kept calm because the greatest danger is getting hopeful and of believing too much in freedom. I still have faith in the Italian justice system but it’s not easy. I thought I would be cleared at my trial and my innocence recognised immediately. At the trial I was really hopeful and the disappointment was immense.”

Describing her daily routine, Knox said: “I wake up early, around 6am. I do a little yoga to free up my bones and ideas then I reply to the letters I get from friends and family and ­people I don’t know. It’s around 300 a month. People tell me not to give up and it is a great support.

“Mid-morning I play volleyball with the other inmates. In the afternoon I rest or study but in recent weeks I watched more TV than usual as I was watching the World Cup.”

Soccer fan Knox, whose nickname Foxy came from the days when she was a talented tackler in her local Seattle team, supported the USA and German teams but said she was disappointed when Italy went out. Knox spoke on the day she celebrated her 23rd birthday with her mother, Edda Mellas, and sister Deanna in the small visitor’s room at La Capanne prison, south of Perugia.

It was the third time the mother and her two daughters had endured the pain and poignancy of marking a birthday knowing only two of them would be leaving at the end of visiting time. A day after Amanda’s birthday, 10 days ago, it was also her mother’s birthday.

Deanna, 21, told the Sunday Express: “Such moments really get through to you. This was the third year in a row I’d been to visit my sister to wish her ‘happy birthday’, to give her my love, knowing she shouldn’t be in there.

“I know I’ll be able to leave to go back to Seattle and to the life Amanda’s missing out on because of injustice. When I’m with her it’s my job to make her laugh and smile. But it’s a bitter-sweet experience. For Amanda to know I was sad would only make her sad so I hold myself together as much as I can, then when she leaves, the tears flow.”
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby ajackson » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:15 am

Wow. Notwithstanding the mistakes it is a good article. It personalizes Amanda and her family, her sister in particular, more than most of what I have read in the past. This can be a really big deal if it counters the dehumanization and vilification that they published right from the beginning and that, in my opinion, contributed materially to Amanda's wrongful conviction. If it didn't influence the court to convict her notwithstanding the poor case and shabby evidence, it at least made it possible for them to go along with Mignini's ridiculous theories and deny Amanda justice. At the very least, I believe it shattered Amanda's credibility and so, as a consequence, wherever the court needed to make a determination of credibility, it went against Amanda, not on the basis of inconsistencies in court or on the basis of demeanor in court, but due to a prejudice carefully nurtured through the gutterpress.
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Re: Building This Forum Together

Postby billyryan » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:09 pm

does anybody know when this aplication to have amanda given pre appeal freedom comes before a judge for decision i believe if amanda is given preappeal freedom it would be a turning point in this tragic miscarriage of justice.also if her appeal is turned down it will be an indication that amanda will not get justice off the peruvian judicary
as reguards the press now all articles in the press are slanted towards amanda and raffaela being wrongfully convicted and during the appeal could come very much in behind the innocent defendants. as regards the awards presented to the police who investigated the case,it could be something they organised themselves in a desperate attempt to get some good publicity as they fear the backlash that could be coming from the press
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Mae Zion » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:05 am

This is a support forum. Mae Zion does not Support Amanda and Raffaele. She will no longer be posting here. I did leave the excellent responses to Mae's post below.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby tjholme » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:35 am

Mae,

On the off chance that you're actually interested in discovering the truth behind this case and are not simply a Guilter sock-puppet with a mind wide shut intent only on blathering on and on the usual discredited Guilter talking points, I would recommend two short pages to you.. Just two. I'm not going to waste my time rebutting the twisted and forced story that's been passed off as a theory of the crime by the Italian Prosecutor Mignini (as has been done dozens of times by more patient and knowledgeable people than I)

First, Retired FBI Steve Moore's short articles. Short, to the point, written in language everybody can understand.

[url]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html[/url]

Second, Komponisto's [i]"Amanda Knox Test"[/i] at LessWrong ... More about how to consider the case rather than getting bogged down in any specific evidence.

[url]http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_knox_test_how_an_hour_on_the_internet/[/url]

Read those two with as much of an open mind as you can muster. Then, if you have questions about specific items of evidence, Bruce has compiled an extensive reference linked to the home page of injusticeinperugia.org
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Michael » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:34 pm

Mae says nothing of substance.
This seems to be an ethical dilemma for the Bruce and the admin folks. Should guilters be allowed to be members, when they will only repeat the same falsehoods?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby MikeyT » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:41 pm

To Mae
First of all,let me point out to you that niether Amanda's DNA nor Rafaele's was found on or near poor Meredith.
Second,I have a right to speak my mind as do others on here so deal with it.
I find you attitude revolting.
We care about nothing but the truth which of course is that Amanda and Rafaele had nothing whatsoever to do with Meredith's death.
The only DNA was from Rudy Guede,no one else.
I have read all there is about this case and it is blindingly obvious that Mignini and the police botched the whole case.
To save face they framed Amanda and Rafaele.
Plain and simple.
I would suggest that you read something other than the drivel that Barbie Nadeau the HACK has published,because her book is nothing but a fairy tale.
She refers to Mignini the bafoon as "a teddy bear" in her book.
This clearly points to her total infatuation with him.
She is a married woman with children for pete's sakes and she carries on about Mignini like a love struck school girl.
She never set foot in the court room as her fans claim she did.

Not one single reporter was allowed in due to the judges order.
The main judge only allowed photos to be taken before each court session began nothing more.

Please do us all a favor and read the actual facts before spouting off about things for which you have no proof.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Rhea » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:24 pm

[quote="Mae Zion"]… the Italian judicial system- that same system that voted UNANIMOUSLY- to convict the pair of lovebirds …

Far better minds than yours on this forum have studied scrupulously the evidence over 11 months; no less than 8 judges have established their guilt; there are over 400 pages of documentation as to how and why the crime was committed.[/quote]

Following this logic, there aren't ever any wrong convictions …

But they actually do occur, and there are always jurors and judges who have "established" the defendants guilt and many journalists, experts and observers who are truly convinced of it too, that's a given with wrong convictions.

You have to observe the factors which speak for a wrong conviction here;

You have prosecutors that not once questioned their initial theory, a theroy that at this time was based on no evidence, merely behaviour …

Then, when the evidence wasn't supporting their theory, instead of challenging it, they always carried on with it [i](it would have been quite compromising for them indeed to admit they were completely wrong and presented three innocent people as culprits and already proclaimed "case closed" so early in the investigation when the real assailant wasn't even yet heard of).[/i]

Raffale's shoes are tested negative for blood? They're still his shoeprints!

They turn out not to be his shoeprints, but Guede's, leaving them with no evidence on Raffaele? He's still the murderer (without ANY forensic evidence at that point)!

When the knife doesn't fit two of the three wounds and the imprint on the bed sheet? There were two knifes!

The knife is tested negative for blood? It was cleaned! So well that no blood was left, yet the DNA was still there, which is illogical, if not impossible.

The Luminol footprints were tested negative for blood (which they illegally withheld for half a year)? Well, the substance was too sparse. They were still made of blood!

The same footprints were tested negative for the victim's DNA? They were still made with the victim's blood!

The shoeprint which appears smaller then the others on the pillow case shares the same profile as all the other shoeprints made by Rudy Guede, and can logically be assumed to belong to Rudy as well? That's Amanda's shoe print, because it appears smaller, even though she has no such shoes!
–––––––––––
This is a textbook wrong conviction, they don't explain evidence so much as they actually have to explain MISSING evidence. Things you would expect, if the murder happened the way they claim, but just aren't there.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Sarah » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:29 pm

[quote="Michael"]Mae says nothing of substance.
This seems to be an ethical dilemma for the Bruce and the admin folks. Should guilters be allowed to be members, when they will only repeat the same falsehoods?[/quote]


This was already decided actually. The IIP Blog is open to all points of view and discussion. This is a supporters forum only. A place not for debate but for support and ideas on how to help.

Mae, It would be more appropriate if you posted on the Blog instead.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Bruce Fischer » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:39 pm

Sorry guys. Mae Zion is gone. this will happen from time to time. I was out all day and just checked in. As Sarah mentioned above, the IIP blog is open for all discussion. this forum doesn't need the distraction.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby charlie_wilkes » Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:07 am

I think Mae's position reflects the fundamental mindset of the public - the authorities know what they are doing, they have access to all the facts whereas the public only has limited information, and so we should defer to them.

That mindset changes quickly when one begins to read about criminal investigations.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby McJustice » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:10 am

There is a fierce loyalty to those in positions of trust whom society relies on for guidance or for protection from criminals and harm in general... like children of abusive parents or parishioners of a corrupt priest there is denial and public support instead of accountability, staying informed and taking responsibility to question things in a reasonable way... and so it is with guilters and anyone uninformed about justice system malpractice.

Besides ignorance, is it fear of the bully for these people? Is it a subconscious fear of those who have theoretical power over us that keeps people like the guilters sold on justice system infallibility? Daddy and mommy know best is the simplest way to understand it. And the extension from this simplistic thinking is that people who are punished must deserve it, bad things don't happen to good people... and staying on the side of the official defenders of "good" will in turn protect supporters...

And along with that mindset is a counterbalancing distrust of anybody who has negative things to say about the respected authority figures and the results of whatever they do. So much so that statements from the accepted parental surrogate are accepted uncritically while any contradictions from elsewhere are not only discounted but attract very convoluted involved excursions in faulty logic to explain them away and defend the holy writ of the "correct by definition" defended authority.

Behind an automatic validation screen, good justice systems can become sloppy, less effective, lazy and used to operating without question or hindrance while imagining that they do not make mistakes and become very hostile to reality based challenges from outsiders. Guilters are merely part of the enabling auxiliaries that can help sustain a dysfunctional justice system...
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Michael » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:06 am

This trust of authority is very disturbing. As a teacher, I am aware the our schools are partly responsible in the way they promote respect for authority. On the one hand, respect for authority to some degree is necessary, on the other hand it is very dangerous.

Students learn that obedience of teachers is the way to success, while questioning teachers will get them in trouble. I have been involved in disputes on this issue at my school, and it is a sore point. The problem isn't the school administration, which supports me (I was named teacher of the year last year), but other teachers. They may not tell students not to question them openly, but find subtle (and not so subtle) ways to punish students who think for themselves.

This case is another example showing the need to teach students to question authority on all issues, and recognize that they are ultimately responsible for misdeeds of authority if they are passive. This is one of the main things that has drawn me to it. Another is the need to teach students to question every piece of information they receive, regardless of the source. I demand my students question everything I do, and everything I tell them. They get higher grades for challenging me, and it is one of the main things I write about in college recommendations.

Lets also not forget it was Amanda's trusting of Italian authority that resulted in her arrest.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby ajackson » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:04 am

Michael. I have long believed there should be a form of "due process" for school children (of a certain age) who are accused of breaking rules. It should be an open process in which students are involved. I understand and respect that it would take considerable resources to implement, but what other (controlled) educational experience could better prepare students for life in the real world? Such a program would hone their skills in many areas, understanding of the rules (law,) due process, civics, crap detecting, as well as possibly a "legislative" function of sorts where they may recommend improvements to the rules. When students learn that properly investigated and prosecuted complaints leading to a fair outcome are generally respected, they will learn why one of their civic duties is to monitor the same processes in the world outside the classroom. They will also learn that justice and fairness are achievable outcomes where they, as members of society, participate in the process.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Kevad » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:07 pm

RoseM raised what I thought might be a very good point on Bruce's General Blog today. She asks wasn't the bra clasp originally found directly on the floor under the pillow that was below Meredith's hips. She then indicates that pillows are often brought out of bedrooms when people watch TV in another room, and thus exposed to other people's DNA. Is it possible that Raffaele's or other DNA got on the pillow/pillowcase when it was outside her room then DNA transferred to the metal on the bra clasp when stepped on or touching the pillow below Meredith? I pointed out that first we need to see LCN DNA testing done to confirm it really is Raffael's DNA, but if it is, could the pillow have been the source? Has this specific issue about the pillow been discussed before? Would Amanda know if Meredith's pillow or pillow case was outside her room on some occasion? She also points out where did all the trash come from in the pile it was found, was this all in the room at all times? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby PaulTC » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:57 pm

This is fascinating. I recall that in a good article I read on LCN DNA the author pointed out that one of the real virtues of traditional DNA testing is that it was not too sensitive. In other words, if you found analyzable DNA it had to be in such quantities that you could be reasonably sure that the donor left it where you found it. But LCN DNA is so sensitive that it can pick up secondary and even tertiary transfers and the issue of how it got where it was found becomes more problematic. So Rose is on the ball picking this up.

There are both technical and interpretive issues with LCN DNA. Stefanoni didn't do any of the technical stuff right because she never planned to be doing LCN testing. She only did it as a last resort and to force a result. The interpretive issues fall into two categories: 1) Interpreting the electropherogram correctly; and 2) Correctly assessing whether the DNA sample had anything to do with the crime.

These issues are actually in play any time DNA testing is used, but they are hugely problematic when LCN DNA is involved.

The bra-clasp issue is every bit as complicated as the knife issue. Clearly the chain of custody was blown completely. So contamination is even more of an issue than normal. But if I read your summary of the appeal correctly Kevad, Raf's lawyers say: a) the quantities of DNA attributable to him are so minute that LCN procedures should have been followed; and b) more importantly, the sample attributable to Raf has markers that exclude him as a donor.

Of course we should not forget that even if it is Raf's DNA it is not indicative of guilt. There are a hundred innocent ways it could have gotten there.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Kevad » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:50 pm

Yes, they argue in their appeal that the DNA sample on the clasp is not even Raffaele's based upon their experts analysis. They feel the marker were not amplified correctly, and are misread. If you use LCN it changes the results and when you do it twice you can only use the markers that are identical, which leads to a no match for Raffaele. Their argument that it is LCN seems very good to me, and it appears very odd the court did not understand it nor did the court understand that if any markers do not match, its not him. Their expert did like 5 or 6 only and had like 4 that did not match as I recall and the court felt that was not enough, and the appeal is saying if all of them don't match its not him. Regardless, I like RoseM's concept of possible contamination/transfer because they also say, if LCN testing somehow shows it is Raffaele's then there must be contamination or secondary transfer involved cause he was not there.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Chris C » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:10 pm

I've tried to point this out before. The problem with multiple dna donors is it lets you mix and match to build profiles. The question is if there was enough dna to leave 3 unidentified donors how many profiles can you build. In Sollecito's case i believe his profile was only a partial. So now you have all these markers to build partial profiles.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby PaulTC » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:52 am

I know you mentioned that Chris and I agree it is a problem. But I have no idea what the protocols are for interpreting a mixed sample. How do you determine where one sample starts and the next stops? I have no idea. But obviously there is room for shenanigans. Several things occur to me:

1) For about the 1000th time I have been thinking how completely insane it is that they haven't tried to figure out who the other donors are. How can they be so incurious? How can they not want to know? It is like they have the graph of Raffaele's DNA and they try to figure out some way--any way--that they can make the bra-clasp sample into his DNA. This is a text book example of what not to do.

2) I believe these issues were clearly raised at trial, but among all the observers it seems only Frank Sfarzo picked up on the importance of what was being said. This is the problem when you assign food writers, and book review writers, and political and cultural writers to cover a trial. They are interested in the conflicts and drama and "the buzz." But the important technical stuff makes their eyes glaze over and they assign the discussion to the category of things that the experts for guilty defendants always say. They seem incapable of understanding that there is a genuine debate going on and the defense experts might be right.

3) I cannot help but recall that wonderful article in Foreign Policy Magazine ("Can Anyone Get a Fair Trial in Italy?") which notes that a common criticism of Italian judges is that they have no specific training in forensics, and often no real interest in the subject. Having no basis for exercising independent judgment, they usually just accept what the police experts say and reject what the defense says.

I must say this issue of trash that Rose raises intrigues me. Where, indeed, did it come from? Presumably, those things of Meredith's that were not needed as evidence would have been returned to her family at some point. So what is this stuff?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Chris C » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:50 am

Another point is it was suppose to be in a pile of trash. That was either swept up or placed there. So unless they have someone raise their hand and say I swept the floor or I placed that stuff there, then the chain of custody is broken.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby RoseMontague » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:34 am

Dan O has got a side by side pic of the desk/trash pile with the 2 Novemeber and the 18 December next to each other. I have no idea where all that stuff came from. If you have not signed on to his wiki, it is a fantastic resource.

[url]http://www.skepticweb.dreamhosters.com/Bra_clasp[/url]
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby McJustice » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:41 am

It almost seems like a justice by numbers set-up... a by the book bureaucratic one... with boxes to tick...
DNA yes no...
murder weapon check,
foot print, check.... etc.
(or maybe a "frame-by-numbers" scavenger hunt... one team and they always win with everything on the list)

everything is cut and dried, either/or... of course most of the people directly involved in each specialty know there is a lot more uncertainty and gray areas... BUT they are in a hierarchy and their superiors want results... and even telegraph what they expect to get... and without any real oversight or independent review of much of this... who is going to know if they use their professional judgment to say... well yeah... it mighta coulda be can't be totally ruled out... so. YES ABSOLUTELY! no question... it is not incompatible... sorta... and a gold star for me... All absolute certainties in the final report.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Sarah » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:10 am

[quote="RoseMontague"]Dan O has got a side by side pic of the desk/trash pile with the 2 Novemeber and the 18 December next to each other. I have no idea where all that stuff came from. If you have not signed on to his wiki, it is a fantastic resource.

[url]http://www.skepticweb.dreamhosters.com/Bra_clasp[/url][/quote]


http://lastrada.blogspot.com/2007/11/pe ... 07-as.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If it could be proven that this NOV 14th entry wasn't logged then it is a bit of a smoking gun that the bra clasp had lost chain of custody.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Chris C » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:13 pm

Of course it lost chain of custody, it had been identified in one location, not retrieved, moved from its location and then found again. Thats losing chain of custody. Someone moved it. It didn't just grow legs and change locations by itself.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby RoseMontague » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:33 pm

Sarah,
Perhaps that was just a guided tour or something.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby davelebon » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:44 pm

Rose - regarding Sarah's post - have you looked at the door photo up close? The front door is open behind the grating if you examine this one full-size photo. Per the blog dated Nov 14 2007:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BZD30a25FmE/R ... t+door.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a topic already on this in case anyone has more thoughts on the matter:
http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/ ... -t170.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
aka. "ForTruth"
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby RoseMontague » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:39 pm

The joke I was making was perhaps there was someone inside giving a guided tour of the murder scene to paying customers. I can't really tell if the door is open or not.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby ajackson » Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:49 pm

On Mignini holding a seance.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby davelebon » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:03 am

Ah, I should have known you were joking!
aka. "ForTruth"
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Chris C » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:49 am

[quote="ajackson"]On Mignini holding a seance.[/quote]
Actually Mignini did consult with his Witch that speaks with a dead priest on this case and on the monster of florence case.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Flipp » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:07 am

Spoke. Gabriella Carlizzi passed away last August 11th victim of cancer.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Michael » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:58 am

Does anyone know anything about this?

RIPPED FROM THE HEADLINES: A mid-October production start has been set for the movie going under the temporary title of "The Amanda Knox Project" -- as in the true story of the 20-year-old American woman living in Italy who was convicted of killing British Meredith Kercher, one of her roommates. The grisly case involved sexual violence and murder under the influence of hashish and sexually violent graphic novels owned by Knox's boyfriend, wealthy heir Raffaele Sollecito, who was also found guilty in the case. Knox was sentenced to 26 years in prison. Casting for Knox and other principals is under way.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Rixx » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:32 pm

Hi Michael, It seems to originate here:-

http://www.productionweekly.com/product ... -17-pages/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

only accessible by subscription and probably containing exactly the paragraph you quoted and not much else besides. Just "industry gossip" I'd guess.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Chris C » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:29 am

I seriously doubt they would start a movie like that. Especially not in mid-october. It seems to be poking fun at the appeal date. If they started filming and the case gets overturned they got to rewrite the entire script. Plus if they film it before appeals are done and the case gets overturned, Then everyone can be sued for slander.
The most likely scenario is they are trying to drum up negative attention on Knox. Now i'm not saying the film rights for the Knox murder books haven't been sold. Movie and TV rights get sold/rented all the time without anything ever being filmed. It would be a disaster though if they filmed it before appeals where done.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby sept79 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:10 am

NICOLE WINFIELD (AP - 8/28/10) - Pertaining to a new book to be published about Amanda:

Amanda Knox, the American student convicted in Italy of murdering her British roommate, has told an Italian lawmaker in a series of jailhouse conversations that she hopes to adopt children and be a writer when free.

Lawmaker Rocco Girlanda told The Associated Press on Saturday that he kept a diary of his frequent visits with Knox in her Perugia jail, material that has formed the basis of a book being published in Italy and the U.S. later this fall.

Girlanda's "Take Me With You - Talks with Amanda Knox in Prison" also includes letters and poetry Knox sent to Girlanda, the president of a foundation that promotes ties between the two countries.
.
.
.
Girlanda first met Knox around the time of her conviction, saying he wanted to get to know her in a bid to help offset the diplomatic fallout the explosive case had created. Over some 20 meetings in the ensuing months, he said, a friendship grew.

The two never discussed the case, he said. Rather, their jailhouse encounters focused on issues about Knox's life — her childhood growing up in Seattle, her memories of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, her views on religion, spirituality, education, sports, marriage, culture and literature.

Those topics are all addressed in the book, as well as what he said was Knox's desire to be a writer, "her desire to adopt children, her love for Italy despite everything, the significance of friendship."

Girlanda stresses in the book that his conclusions are based solely on his discussions with Knox. He said he never spoke to her parents, friends or lawyers, who have depicted her as an innocent, albeit flighty girl who loved Italy and considered Kercher a friend.

"Everything grew from a desire to get to know an American girl, the same age as one of my daughters, who has found herself to be living in the most dramatic experience of her life," Girlanda writes in the book. "I think that after so many months, after so many meetings, I succeeded."

The 240-page book is being published first in Italy at the end of October and then in the U.S.; proceeds will go to Girlanda's foundation.
---------------------------------

Is this the all important first step in an Italian attempt to 1) humanize Amanda Knox, 2) desensitize the Italian masses by presenting Amanda to be something other than a 'she devel', and 3) implore the appeal court to find Knox/Sollecito innocent?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Michael » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:26 am

Sounds like it migh be - if he really spent so much time with Amanda, he must know she is innocent!
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby sept79 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:51 am

That would make Lawmaker Rocco Girlanda and Father Saulo Scarabattoli who would profess Amanda's innocence.

The following from a few months ago has, also, intrigued me:


Knox’s mother, Edda Mellas, told KING 5 News that Alessi’s not alone in claiming that Guede says Knox and Sollecito are innocent.

"I've heard two different reports now that there’s also a priest and a nun that had conversations, not confessions, conversations, where Rudy expressed the fact that he felt bad… that he was feeling some guilt about the fact that he had pointed the finger at these two (Amanda and Raffaele) when they were not there," Mellas said.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby glo gonz » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:41 am

How did Rocco Giralanda get access to Amanda ? I thought that in Italy you can only visit with prisoners if you are family or their attorney.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby sept79 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:16 pm

[i]How did Rocco Giralanda get access to Amanda ? I thought that in Italy you can only visit with prisoners if you are family or their attorney.
[/i]

It's my understanding that lawmakers can visit prisoners whenever they wish.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby ajackson » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:55 pm

[quote="sept79"]It's my understanding that lawmakers can visit prisoners whenever they wish.[/quote]

That was reported in the news piece about the visit shortly after Amanda was convicted last December. Too bad there wasn't a visit when Amanda was in solitary confinement awaiting the hearing to determine whether she should be held pending charges. Perhaps her efforts to recant the Lumamba statement would have been heard by a wider public and the guilters would know that she tried to set the record straight as soon as she could.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby PhanuelB » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:26 pm

Does anyone remember how Harry R. Wilkins used to talk about Don Saulo Scarabattoli? What was his point? Does anyone know?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby sept79 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:16 pm

I took it that Harry was anti-religion.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby RoseMontague » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:02 pm

Harry doesn't much care for the religious types. I admit to having tried to draw him out a little in some posts at View From Wilmington awhile back. He posted some really bizarre stuff.
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KING 5 SEATTLE AIRS AMANDA UPDATE 8/30

Postby suzeerose » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:28 pm

I just heard a 'teaser" for an uncoming story.
They said the story will air Monday 8/30 at 11 pm... not a great time for most viewers, but they interview "former FBI agent Steve Moore who proves that Amanda was not there".

PS It would be helpful if there were an easier way to get in and post comments... instead of as a reply.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Sarah » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:53 pm

Retired FBI agent Steve Moore's interview with Linda Byron from King 5 news in Seattle about the Amanda Knox case will be shown on Monday Aug 30th at 11:00pm. Turn in to see how a professional in crime scene analysis views the case !!

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/FBI.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby tjholme » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:34 pm

When can I post this on my FB page?
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Sarah » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:04 pm

NOW !!

:))))
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Rhea » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:18 am

The video of Moore's interview has been uploaded now …

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Investi ... 39513.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Rhea » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:53 pm

There's an interesting video on youtube, a law professor who advises his students to never ever talk to the cops, because it can't [i]ever[/i] help you but only help them to convict you, even if you're totally innocent and even if you're truthful and don't say anything incriminating.

Quite entertaining and interesting, shows so well, what has happened to Amanda and Raffaele …

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related]Don't Talk to Cops[/url]
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby Michael » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:58 pm

[quote="Rhea"]There's an interesting video on youtube, a law professor who advises his students to never ever talk to the cops, because it can't [i]ever[/i] help you but only help them to convict you, even if you're totally innocent and even if you're truthful and don't say anything incriminating.

Quite entertaining and interesting, shows so well, what has happened to Amanda and Raffaele …

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik&feature=related]Don't Talk to Cops[/url][/quote]

I discussed this with all my graduating seniors last May, using this case as a prime example. Will do the same this year.
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Re: General Discussion Thread

Postby ajackson » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:43 pm

The only exception to that rule is if you have a strong alibi. If you don't come out with it right away, it may be dismissed by police and courts as a fabrication.
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