Debra Milke Case Discussion

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:25 am

In my article I wrote that he had taken notes and later destroyed them because that's what I had understood ( and still it seems tobe the "official" version").

I'd say "Saldate claimed to have taken notes during the interrogation ( Milke confirmed that he had a notepad but she didn't see him taking notes) but, according to official statements, those notes were later destroyed."
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:54 am

Dougm wrote:So I guess we don't really know if these notes ever existed or not. So Debra said he took out a notebook, but did she say he made notes of what she said at the interview? ::confused::
That's false. We know for a fact, that Saldate took notes during the interrogation of Debra. Only, at Debra's trial he claimed them destroyed. Please read carefully what I stated above. The oddity here is that the State told the 9th Circuit Court that Saldate destroyed the notes shortly after the report was typed. In the June 26th interview Saldate himself referred to precisely those notes. I think it's clear he did not want to produce the notes. That's the true story. How was Debra supposed to know what kind of notes Saldate took? Besides, thsi was 22 years ago... She was just told that her son is dead!
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:56 am

pmop57 wrote:Has anybody a draft or a template of a press release?
If yes PM it to me. Thanks in advance.
We have a separate thread for that. Would be good if issues don't get interrupted.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:57 am

roteoctober wrote:I'd say "Saldate claimed to have taken notes during the interrogation ( Milke confirmed that he had a notepad but she didn't see him taking notes) but, according to official statements, those notes were later destroyed."
That's also not correct, I'm sorry :sadno:
Debra Milke wrote:"He pulled a business card out of his pocket, checked his watch, wrote something down on a paper pad, looked at me and asked if I was Debbie. I looked at him strangely and said, 'Yes, of course.' He then said to me, all in one breath, 'We found your son, he was murdered and you are under arrest.'
http://www.debbiemilke.com/en/case/ownwords.shtml
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:13 pm

RimRider wrote:
Dougm wrote:So I guess we don't really know if these notes ever existed or not. So Debra said he took out a notebook, but did she say he made notes of what she said at the interview? ::confused::
That's false. We know for a fact, that Saldate took notes during the interrogation of Debra. Only, at Debra's trial he claimed them destroyed. Please read carefully what I stated above. The oddity here is that the State told the 9th Circuit Court that Saldate destroyed the notes shortly after the report was typed. In the June 26th interview Saldate himself referred to precisely those notes. I think it's clear he did not want to produce the notes. That's the true story. How was Debra supposed to know what kind of notes Saldate took? Besides, thsi was 22 years ago... She was just told that her son is dead!


How is asking a question, "false"? I don't get it.

With all due respect, it is very hard to discuss a case with you if you take offense to someone trying to learn about it. I never said Debra did anything wrong. I am just trying to understand if we know for a fact there were notes, or not. Debra saying he had a notebook is different than her saying he took notes. I agree she cannot be expected to know what he wrote.

I am sure Debra was very shocked, and I don't expect her to have remembered every detail about what Saldate did. So you say above that we know for a fact that Saldate took notes, then in the same paragraph, you ask how Debra can be expected to know what kind of notes Saldate took??? So how do we "know" then? I am just trying to get the facts straight.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Rimrider wrote:Even Debra herself related that Saldate took out a notepad.


So Debra told she saw a notepad, it seems. Maybe she didn't say anything about him taking notes or not? In such a case we can suppress just that part.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:10 pm

roteoctober wrote:
Rimrider wrote:Even Debra herself related that Saldate took out a notepad.


So Debra told she saw a notepad, it seems. Maybe she didn't say anything about him taking notes or not? In such a case we can suppress just that part.


How about this?

"Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed his notes were missing."
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:19 pm

Dougm wrote:
roteoctober wrote:
Rimrider wrote:Even Debra herself related that Saldate took out a notepad.


So Debra told she saw a notepad, it seems. Maybe she didn't say anything about him taking notes or not? In such a case we can suppress just that part.


How about this?

"Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed his notes were missing."


I have not yet understood very well if he claimed to have DESTROYED them or if somebody else officially claimed that for him, the point is that in my opinion the right word is "destroyed", not "missing".
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:46 pm

roteoctober wrote:I have not yet understood very well if he claimed to have DESTROYED them or if somebody else officially claimed that for him, the point is that in my opinion the right word is "destroyed", not "missing".
Yep, it is undisputed that Saldate took notes initially. At her trial he claimed the notes were destroyed. He was not able (or as suspected, not willing) to produced these notes. Matthew, I'm sorry, I may have read that wrong. I mean, just picture how brutally she was confronted with the fact that her son was murdered. How was Debra supposed to realize what he did with that notepad? Despite Saldate's claim that he could not see any tears, she consistently related that she was crying and sobbing hard.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:09 pm

RimRider wrote:
roteoctober wrote:I have not yet understood very well if he claimed to have DESTROYED them or if somebody else officially claimed that for him, the point is that in my opinion the right word is "destroyed", not "missing".
Yep, it is undisputed that Saldate took notes initially. At her trial he claimed the notes were destroyed. He was not able (or as suspected, not willing) to produced these notes. Matthew, I'm sorry, I may have read that wrong. I mean, just picture how brutally she was confronted with the fact that her son was murdered. How was Debra supposed to realize what he did with that notepad? Despite Saldate's claim that he could not see any tears, she consistently related that she was crying and sobbing hard.


I think we are in agreement and both support Debra. I am trying to figure out what happened, or rather, what we know for sure, and what is a guess.

OK, so if I may ask -- If Saldate claimed his notes were "destroyed", what does that mean? Did he say someone threw them away, or did his dog eat them, or what?? (sorry, that is meant as a bit of a joke, but how do notes get "destroyed"?).

I share your goal of getting this right, but there is a difference between what we know for a fact, and what sounds fishy. It appears, per a post above, that we know for a fact that Saldate took notes at the interview, then he claimed they were destroyed. I am looking for more detail on what he actually claimed so we can write it correctly.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:16 pm

Probably he meant he destroyed them by tearing to pieces the sheets of paper where the notes had been written, but if more details are available, the more the better.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Grayhawker » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:19 pm

RimRider wrote:
roteoctober wrote:I have not yet understood very well if he claimed to have DESTROYED them or if somebody else officially claimed that for him, the point is that in my opinion the right word is "destroyed", not "missing".
Yep, it is undisputed that Saldate took notes initially. At her trial he claimed the notes were destroyed. He was not able (or as suspected, not willing) to produced these notes. Matthew, I'm sorry, I may have read that wrong. I mean, just picture how brutally she was confronted with the fact that her son was murdered. How was Debra supposed to realize what he did with that notepad? Despite Saldate's claim that he could not see any tears, she consistently related that she was crying and sobbing hard.

And without his hand written notes, we don't know if he was taking quotes from Milke or was writing his own narrative even at that time. I would suspect notes taken from witness versus drafting own narrative would look quite different on paper when read well after the fact even.

I am an expert in police investigation notes after watching many years of Law and Order. The detectives always have their own notes to refer back to!
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:25 pm

Grayhawker wrote:
RimRider wrote:
roteoctober wrote:I have not yet understood very well if he claimed to have DESTROYED them or if somebody else officially claimed that for him, the point is that in my opinion the right word is "destroyed", not "missing".
Yep, it is undisputed that Saldate took notes initially. At her trial he claimed the notes were destroyed. He was not able (or as suspected, not willing) to produced these notes. Matthew, I'm sorry, I may have read that wrong. I mean, just picture how brutally she was confronted with the fact that her son was murdered. How was Debra supposed to realize what he did with that notepad? Despite Saldate's claim that he could not see any tears, she consistently related that she was crying and sobbing hard.

And without his hand written notes, we don't know if he was taking quotes from Milke or was writing his own narrative even at that time. I would suspect notes taken from witness versus drafting own narrative would look quite different on paper when read well after the fact even.

I am an expert in police investigation notes after watching many years of Law and Order. The detectives always have their own notes to refer back to!


That is what is so fishy sounding about this. The notes are critically important as a record that was taken at the time of the interrogation. Recording would be much preferred, but if he has notes he wrote while he was talking to her, he can claim, more convincingly, that he took down exactly what she said. But "they were destroyed?". WTF is that?

OK, I know I am preaching to the choir about Saldate.

How about this then: "Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed."

Does that seem accurate?
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:28 pm

To me yes.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:13 pm

Dougm wrote:I think we are in agreement and both support Debra. I am trying to figure out what happened, or rather, what we know for sure, and what is a guess.

OK, so if I may ask -- If Saldate claimed his notes were "destroyed", what does that mean? Did he say someone threw them away, or did his dog eat them, or what?? (sorry, that is meant as a bit of a joke, but how do notes get "destroyed"?).

I share your goal of getting this right, but there is a difference between what we know for a fact, and what sounds fishy. It appears, per a post above, that we know for a fact that Saldate took notes at the interview, then he claimed they were destroyed. I am looking for more detail on what he actually claimed so we can write it correctly.
Yep, we're totally on the same page. I believe it was worked out very well in that Clip #3 (and also show how insecure the State argues about them). Saldates testimony upon cross-examination at Debra's trial:
Armando Saldate wrote:Ken Ray: You would take copious notes --
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: -- of the interview?
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
Ken Ray: And then reduce them to some form of narrative supplemental?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: You would not, in preparing your report, transcribe your notes verbatim into the report?
Armando Saldate: No.
Ken Ray: So, in other words, what the report -- what we get in the report is not a duplicate copy of your notes?
Armando Saldate: Unless where it's quoted.
Ken Ray: All right. Only those quotes that you select as the writer of the supplement, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: And those notes that are prepared are destroyed upon the conclusion of the preparation of the typewritten narrative report?
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: And then, in your years of experience, you have never produced those notes, have you?
Armando Saldate: I have not.
Ken Ray: During the course of your testimony on direct examination you have related any number of facts and statements of Debra Milke which were not contained in quotes in your report, is that correct?
Armando Saldate: I don't understand that question.
Ken Ray: You have related over the course of several hours on direct examination what it is that Debra Milke said, whether it be specifically in quoted form or in paraphrased form, as you recall it.
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Nonetheless, you are reciting to this Court her statements, is that right?
Armando Saldate: You are absolutely right.
Ken Ray: And were those statements on your notes?
Armando Saldate: Those were noted on my notes, yes.
Ken Ray: But they were not reduced into your report? Only selected portions of our notes were quoted in your report, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: I believe I answered that's correct.
Ken Ray: You testified yesterday that if a person is neither in custody nor under arrest, rights are not required.
Armando Saldate: That's correct.
From http://www.debbiemilke.com/en/case/docs/saldateincourt2.shtml
Again, Counsel for the State, Julie Done, told the 9th Circuit Court (in the November 2010 oral argument) that Saldate supposedly destroyed his notes right after the narrative report was typed (which was on December 6th, 1989). Then, in that interview on June 26th, 1990 Saldate refers precisely to those notes. I think it's obvious he didn't want to produce those notes. On the previous page I made a suggestion how it could also be penned.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:19 pm

Dougm wrote:That is what is so fishy sounding about this. The notes are critically important as a record that was taken at the time of the interrogation. Recording would be much preferred, but if he has notes he wrote while he was talking to her, he can claim, more convincingly, that he took down exactly what she said. But "they were destroyed?". WTF is that?

OK, I know I am preaching to the choir about Saldate.

How about this then: "Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed."

Does that seem accurate?
LOL, you are totally right. The fact alone that a 20 or 25 minute interrogation yielded a five page report appears ridiculous. His report about his interrogation with SCOTT (where they went to the murder scene, then to the Metro Center) is only a three page report, even though it spans probably five hours. The narrative report however was typed using a typewriter at the police main station. Saldate had a pattern of taking isolated facts which were truly related, and put them together and wove them up into a desired story. That was his common technique, as the comparison of his narrative and the transcript of his interview of of SANDY (Debra's siter) shows.

Also, any law enforcement officer has a tape-recorded set up before starting the interrogation. So, all of this is highly fishy...
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:20 pm

Dougm wrote:"Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed."

::Cheers::
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:41 pm

Ken Ray: During the course of your testimony on direct examination you have related any number of facts and statements of Debra Milke which were not contained in quotes in your report, is that correct?
Armando Saldate: I don't understand that question.
Ken Ray: You have related over the course of several hours on direct examination what it is that Debra Milke said, whether it be specifically in quoted form or in paraphrased form, as you recall it.
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Nonetheless, you are reciting to this Court her statements, is that right?
Armando Saldate: You are absolutely right.
Ken Ray: And were those statements on your notes?
Armando Saldate: Those were noted on my notes, yes.
Ken Ray: But they were not reduced into your report? Only selected portions of our notes were quoted in your report, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: I believe I answered that's correct.


Better and better: practically Saldate can say anything making reference to notes which do not exist anymore because he destroyed them...it's rather astounding that the jury took it at face value without a doubt or a question...
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:55 pm

Just as an intermediate hint: Those of you who have a Facebook account are welcome to visit at http://www.facebook.com/DebraMilke and comment on the various information there. Another way to show support of her. Thanks!
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:13 pm

roteoctober wrote:
Ken Ray: During the course of your testimony on direct examination you have related any number of facts and statements of Debra Milke which were not contained in quotes in your report, is that correct?
Armando Saldate: I don't understand that question.
Ken Ray: You have related over the course of several hours on direct examination what it is that Debra Milke said, whether it be specifically in quoted form or in paraphrased form, as you recall it.
Armando Saldate: That is correct.
Ken Ray: Nonetheless, you are reciting to this Court her statements, is that right?
Armando Saldate: You are absolutely right.
Ken Ray: And were those statements on your notes?
Armando Saldate: Those were noted on my notes, yes.
Ken Ray: But they were not reduced into your report? Only selected portions of our notes were quoted in your report, isn't that right?
Armando Saldate: I believe I answered that's correct.



Better and better: practically Saldate can say anything making reference to notes which do not exist anymore because he destroyed them...it's rather astounding that the jury took it at face value without a doubt or a question...


I don't understand the concept of destroying the original notes, they are the only way to document what was actually said. To paraphrase them, include only cherry picked quotes, and create a narrative that may or may not have been what Debra actually meant is bogus. I can't believe someone can be sent to death row based on this type of law enforcement.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:18 pm

Dougm wrote:I don't understand the concept of destroying the original notes, they are the only way to document what was actually said. To paraphrase them, include only cherry picked quotes, and create a narrative that may or may not have been what Debra actually meant is bogus. I can't believe someone can be sent to death row based on this type of law enforcement.
Unless you live in Arizona... :roll eyes:
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:22 pm

OK, I sent Bruce an update to the second paragraph of the Debra Milke front page article:

The only evidence against Debra Milke for the murder of her son is a confession that she allegedly gave to Armando Saldate, a detective with the Phoenix police department. After her son’s body was found, Saldate had Debra called in to the police station, and interviewed her in a small room with just the two of them present. Debra denies that she ever confessed to Saldate, and no record of the interview exists. Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed. There was no statement ever signed by Debra, as is normal procedure when the police interview someone in a murder case. Yet Debra Milke was convicted almost exclusively because of the testimony that Armando Saldate gave about what he has claimed took place in that interview room.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:29 pm

Dougm wrote:OK, I sent Bruce an update to the second paragraph of the Debra Milke front page article:

The only evidence against Debra Milke for the murder of her son is a confession that she allegedly gave to Armando Saldate, a detective with the Phoenix police department. After her son’s body was found, Saldate had Debra called in to the police station, and interviewed her in a small room with just the two of them present. Debra denies that she ever confessed to Saldate, and no record of the interview exists. Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed. There was no statement ever signed by Debra, as is normal procedure when the police interview someone in a murder case. Yet Debra Milke was convicted almost exclusively because of the testimony that Armando Saldate gave about what he has claimed took place in that interview room.
Debra was not called to the police station, but she was asked to come to the Pima County Jail in Florence. She was staying in Florence with the family of her dad. Anyway... I'm a neat-picker... :rolleyes: Argh, I'm driving you crazy...
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:52 pm

RimRider wrote:
Dougm wrote:OK, I sent Bruce an update to the second paragraph of the Debra Milke front page article:

[i][color=#0000FF]
Debra was not called to the police station, but she was asked to come to the Pima County Jail in Florence. She was staying in Florence with the family of her dad. Anyway... I'm a neat-picker... :rolleyes: Argh, I'm driving you crazy...


I'll fix it.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:58 pm

Dougm wrote:I'll fix it.
::rose::
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:28 am

Matthew wrote:After her son’s body was found, Saldate had Debra called in to the Pima County Jail, and interviewed her in a small room with just the two of them present. (...) Saldate did not record his interrogation of Debra, and claimed later that the notes he took had been destroyed.
::Cheers:: Well done!
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:28 pm

What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.facebook.com/v/1327484303634
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:49 pm

RimRider wrote:What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.facebook.com/v/1327484303634


He denies being angry, but he obviously is full of anger.

What does he mean by all the other things Debra did to him? Is he referring to custody battles, etc.?

When I saw the video, and he said that Debra had Christopher killed because he was a daily reminder of Mark, I thought, "that doesn't make sense. If she really hated Mark that much, why not have Mark killed? (Not that I think Debra would do that, it is just that the motive ascribed to her makes no sense).
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:06 pm

Dougm wrote:
RimRider wrote:What do you guys think of this video?

http://www.facebook.com/v/1327484303634


He denies being angry, but he obviously is full of anger.

What does he mean by all the other things Debra did to him? Is he referring to custody battles, etc.?

When I saw the video, and he said that Debra had Christopher killed because he was a daily reminder of Mark, I thought, "that doesn't make sense. If she really hated Mark that much, why not have Mark killed? (Not that I think Debra would do that, it is just that the motive ascribed to her makes no sense).
You are totally right. I found this video on Mark's Facebook page and saw this for the very first time. I was totally stunned at all the fairy-tales he told. It bugs me that I was there and did not speak to the media. I should have. Debra's mother Renate and her man walked away, so I felt I shouldn't drag myself into the foreground. Oh well, that will never happen to me again! I think Mark is totally delusional. Of course, Debra sought divorce, and she was the one who got a restraining order against HIM!!! This guy is so full of sh*te....
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:52 pm

User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:35 am

Thanks Frankie, I'm on a sunny beach now, but I give a reading from time to time :-)
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy


Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:53 am

Very touching and well thoughts words by Debra.

A spur to do always more to right the wrong in her case.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Grayhawker » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:28 pm

Has there been any movement at all in this case? Anything going on with discrediting the detective's claims?

It has almost become the forgotten case on IIP right now, though there are so many cases. An epidemic almost of wrongful convictions.

Would love to see the ground swell that Ms Lobato has gotten for Ms Milke
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:16 pm

I have tried to contact Jim Styers through mail but so far no answer, and I'm starting to doubt he will ever answer.
There is also the issue of the press release: I'll contact DougM and RimRider and hopefully we will be able to finally produce it.
I know, and I'm sorry, that this case seems at a stand still, but we will try to revive it as soon as possible.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:30 pm

roteoctober wrote:I have tried to contact Jim Styers through mail but so far no answer, and I'm starting to doubt he will ever answer.
There is also the issue of the press release: I'll contact DougM and RimRider and hopefully we will be able to finally produce it.
I know, and I'm sorry, that this case seems at a stand still, but we will try to revive it as soon as possible.

When the press release is finished, I volunteer to do a german translation. It's time to remind the people here, as well...
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:56 pm

Hans wrote:When the press release is finished, I volunteer to do a german translation. It's time to remind the people here, as well...
Well, I just sent roteoctober an eMail. I'm in Arizona right now and will try to get some media attention about the case locally. I will check into the forum once in a while, but my internet accesses will be much slower for the next weeks. Pls. keep me posted.

:coke:
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Sarah » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:58 pm

Hi,

I would like to get back into this case now. Things are still not fully stable for me yet, but I want to get involved again. Hopefully on Saturday I can flesh out my PR idea and present ideas here. Perhaps start a draft.
User avatar
Sarah
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:12 am

I will also be back with more time at my disposal from beginning of November on. I have really bad conscious but actually I am overloaded with work. Crise economique oblige.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:36 pm

Very good, I can see the wheels starting to spin...maybe we will need a few weeks more but definitely we will deliver.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Sarah » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:49 pm

There's a Facebook page, but I think groups are better for this.

http://www.facebook.com/DebraMilke

Rimrider, is this your page? What about making a group instead?
User avatar
Sarah
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Norm51 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:57 pm

I can see these guys are no friends to Debra.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley ... sister.php
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Grayhawker » Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:49 am

Norm51 wrote:I can see these guys are no friends to Debra.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valley ... sister.php


But do they question how one of the most corrupt cops in Phoenix history (check out how many of his accused's statements were tossed), Armando Suldate, got her to confess during an interrogation? Of did she? She did not sign a statement. There was no recording. There were no other witnesses to interrogation. This was it. Oh, and the shooter's word against the mother. What would his motivation have been to point at Milke?
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:35 pm

Grayhawker wrote:Oh, and the shooter's word against the mother. What would his motivation have been to point at Milke?
They are not getting it. Yes, SCOTT stated what he was supposed to say (probably being promised to get off with a lesser charge). I think it's obvious that Saldate briefed SCOTT on what to say (and this was later tape-recorded by Det. Mills with leading questions). Saldate claimed that the incrimination happened inside a police car, en route to the murder scene. But the officer driving the car does not mention this incrimination in his report. Funny, funny...
I think Saldate was upset with STYERS later in the afternoon when he refused to talk to police, and requested an attorney. That's when Saldate decided to frame the mother and thusly sandwich STYERS between the two unbelievable accusations/confessions. One obtained with leading statements, an one by violating a person's constitutional rights (Debra Milke's).
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:33 am

RimRider,
How would you actually start a new media campaign in favour of Debra?
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:07 am

pmop57 wrote:RimRider,
How would you actually start a new media campaign in favour of Debra?
Uhm, that's a good question! And it is precisely what I'm trying to accomplish here locally right now. Ahm, I was thinking of some sheets of information, freely available as pdf files, that journalists can download. Also, I think we should gather contact info/eMail addresses nation-wide (in the US), and then - when that job is finished - send out a mass mailing. On Tuesday I'll meet the investigator for the defense at Debra's trial, Mr. Fowler. I'm sure he'll also provide some hints and suggestions. I'll keep you posted on further developments :nod:
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:56 am

Would it make sense to do also something in Europe, ... ?
The US ambessy's in Europe ... ?
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:54 am

pmop57 wrote:Would it make sense to do also something in Europe, ... ?
The US ambessy's in Europe ... ?
I'm not sure... Bringing the case back into the people's minds is definitely a good idea. Some of them will start to show their support.
But getting the officials involved has a tendency to backfire. (I'm thinking of the LaGrant case here...)
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:24 pm

Hans wrote:
pmop57 wrote:Would it make sense to do also something in Europe, ... ?
The US ambessy's in Europe ... ?
I'm not sure... Bringing the case back into the people's minds is definitely a good idea. Some of them will start to show their support.
But getting the officials involved has a tendency to backfire. (I'm thinking of the LaGrant case here...)
Europe cannot put any pressure on the State's governments (inside the US). A change of song within the US (and the citizens) would, which is why I'm focusing on that right now. Any US embassy in Europe would only point at the independence of the single States, so that doesn't make too much sense, I think. They have shredders, too :boggled:
If specific European politicians had close ties to the US, it would be different, but who of us is related to Merkel oder Hollande? :sadno:
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:42 pm

I actually really have a problem to see what I could still do to help make things advance!
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:08 pm

I think we could study every detail of the case to find further weak points and contradictions and dissect them analitically, then publicize them maybe on Ground Report or elsewhere in order to touch more souls in the US.

Pmop57, we have to realize that there is no magic wand that can set Debra free with a stroke: we have to give our small contributions and hope for the best. I understand the desire of being able to overturn her wrongful conviction with just one smart and bold operation, but the sad reality is that the US system is slow and ponderous in cases like Debra's and from Europe we have even less opportunities to give it a move, BUT we must not give up!

Try, for instance, to analyze the media behaviour at the time of the trial (and before) and write something about that: I told you before that if you prefer to write it in French I could then translate it.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 pm

roteoctober wrote:I think we could study every detail of the case to find further weak points and contradictions and dissect them analitically, then publicize them maybe on Ground Report or elsewhere in order to touch more souls in the US.

Pmop57, we have to realize that there is no magic wand that can set Debra free with a stroke: we have to give our small contributions and hope for the best. I understand the desire of being able to overturn her wrongful conviction with just one smart and bold operation, but the sad reality is that the US system is slow and ponderous in cases like Debra's and from Europe we have even less opportunities to give it a move, BUT we must not give up!

Try, for instance, to analyze the media behaviour at the time of the trial (and before) and write something about that: I told you before that if you prefer to write it in French I could then translate it.
I'm with you on that, let us do, what (smart people before me) on this site have done in the Amanda Knox case. Dismantle the prosecution's case brick by brick, lie by lie, and tell it to the people in Arizona...
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Grayhawker » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:33 pm

The Skeptical Juror wrote these two blogs.

The Impending Wrongful Execution of Eric King: 3 (focused a lot on the detective - [highlight]Armando Saldate[/highlight])
http://www.skepticaljuror.com/2011/03/impending-wrongful-conviction-of-eric.html

This is a continuation of his five part series on Eric King but points out that Saldate was involved withFOUR death row convictions, one already overturned.
http://www.skepticaljuror.com/2011/03/impending-wrongful-execution-of-eric_21.html
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:30 pm

To my opinion the focus has to be on Saldate who manipulated this case and on Levy who acted like a medivial inquisitor, both only interested in supporting their careers. And not to forget a completely incompetent judge presiding this case.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:21 pm

Grayhawker wrote:This is a continuation of his five part series on Eric King but points out that Saldate was involved withFOUR death row convictions, one already overturned.
Yes, and one already executed: Eric King :(
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Norm51 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:27 pm

RimRider wrote:
Grayhawker wrote:This is a continuation of his five part series on Eric King but points out that Saldate was involved withFOUR death row convictions, one already overturned.
Yes, and one already executed: Eric King :(



http://www.arizonadeathpenltyinjustice.webs.com/
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:56 pm

I'm now looking in detail at Roger Scott's testimony at his own trial: for the time being I'm yet undecided if writing something on this specific subject of is going on to a more comprehensive, all encompassing rebuttal of the prosecution case, which, howeever, would take longer.
I hope others will also take up the task of discussing specific points of this case.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Ellie » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:15 pm

As an AZ resident, I've signed the petition on behalf of Debra Milke & written to the Gov. Is that it? What else can be done? Where?
Ellie
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:58 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:29 am

Ellie wrote:As an AZ resident, I've signed the petition on behalf of Debra Milke & written to the Gov. Is that it? What else can be done? Where?


There is celrtainly a lot to do, but my perception is that no immediate results can be expected.
An appeal is under way but it seems going on very slowly.
One of the posters in his case, Rimrider, is from AZ too: you can PM him and ask him for what can be done in Arizona.

I myself live on the other side of the world, others who have contributed here come also from European countries or from other states in the US: we try to keep the attention alive mainly through articles, but different suggestions are welcome.

Our main doubt (I'm speaking mainly for the Europeans) is the "permability" of the public opinion in Arizona to pressures coming from abroad, especially from outside the US: we don't know how much they can care and I also personally fear that they can stonewall.
That's the main reason because I advised against writing in favor of Debra Milke to American Embassies in our European countries: given the rather independent status of state justice from federal government it is bound to be pretty useless and on the other hand it could backfire if perceived as undue foreign interference.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Bruce Fischer » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:26 pm

RimRider wrote:
pmop57 wrote:RimRider,
How would you actually start a new media campaign in favour of Debra?
Uhm, that's a good question! And it is precisely what I'm trying to accomplish here locally right now. Ahm, I was thinking of some sheets of information, freely available as pdf files, that journalists can download. Also, I think we should gather contact info/eMail addresses nation-wide (in the US), and then - when that job is finished - send out a mass mailing. On Tuesday I'll meet the investigator for the defense at Debra's trial, Mr. Fowler. I'm sure he'll also provide some hints and suggestions. I'll keep you posted on further developments :nod:


I think the death penalty angle is the best way to gather new support. I think we should be much more active with anti-death penalty groups. I know some are extremists so we would need to use caution on who we deal with. The death penalty is a controversial topic that can be used to gain attention.

Media support is difficult to get if an execution date is not looming. The media jumps all over cases when it is too late. The challenge is to get their attention before that occurs.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:17 am

I think the death penalty is one way of approach, and certainly in this case!
But the second major point to my opinion is, what is the the value of a "normal" person confronted to the judicial system when all her "human" and "constitutional" rights are betrayed by the police, the prosecutors and the judges. This was a purely arbitrary judgement based on a case constructed by a police officer and a prosecutor. This judgement would have honoured every police state and shows all components of state abuse.
Under these conditions you can declare guilty everybody at any time you want for what ever reason you want.
And even if it does resolve anything, I have to say that for me this case is simply revolting and disgusting.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:41 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:
I think the death penalty angle is the best way to gather new support. I think we should be much more active with anti-death penalty groups. I know some are extremists so we would need to use caution on who we deal with. The death penalty is a controversial topic that can be used to gain attention.

Media support is difficult to get if an execution date is not looming. The media jumps all over cases when it is too late. The challenge is to get their attention before that occurs.


You have an extremist right here. :lol:

Seriously, I think we can start writing more about Debra's case, which could create a renewed interest, and THEN play the death penalty card.
I'm preparing an article, but I've yet to decide its scope.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Bruce Fischer » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:54 pm

This organization looks promising. Sarah recently found this website. I think it may be worth pursuing. I don't know if they have plans to continue highlighting additional cases but I think we should present this case to them.

http://www.oneforten.com/
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:00 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:This organization looks promising. Sarah recently found this website. I think it may be worth pursuing. I don't know if they have plans to continue highlighting additional cases but I think we should present this case to them.

http://www.oneforten.com/


Their format, if I understand it correctly, concerns individuals who once were in the death row but who were subsequently released...however if you think they could be interested, why not?
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Bruce Fischer » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm

roteoctober wrote:
Bruce Fischer wrote:This organization looks promising. Sarah recently found this website. I think it may be worth pursuing. I don't know if they have plans to continue highlighting additional cases but I think we should present this case to them.

http://www.oneforten.com/


Their format, if I understand it correctly, concerns individuals who once were in the death row but who were subsequently released...however if you think they could be interested, why not?


Yes, they are currently doing a series of short films. I know it would not be in the immediate future but it would be interesting to see what their future plans are. There is a series done by Werner Herzog that presented portraits of people on death row. Here is one of those portraits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAqRCXm5npc

It would be fantastic to see a film crew like One For Ten use their same concept to interview those proclaiming innocence that have not yet been released.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Ellie » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:14 pm

I honestly haven't given a thought to Debra Milke in more than 20-years. Most people in AZ, I'm guessing, haven't. It was only after watching re-airing of a T.V. show 2-wks ago, I got on-line researching. And I was shocked! Now hardly a day goes by when I don't think of her. To be clear, 1989: the police and Justice System largely still had our trust. No internet, cell phones, tablets, cable T.V. Info came into our homes via newspapers, nightly news. That media broadcasted the story of the monster who orchestrated her child's murder on the pretense of going to see Santa. Everyone remembers that. To be successful, a grass movement attempt needs to focus on enlightenment. Tying it to abolishment of the death penalty initially, will lose people desperately needed to hear. I'm beginning reaching out one person at a time.
Ellie
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:58 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:09 pm

I'd not "tie" the case to the abolishment of death penalty, but the absurdity of a death penalty decided on so flimsy ground as an alleged verbal confession, not signed, not recorded, without witnesses, could be used to gather further support by all those who have even only doubts against death penalty.
I would see it as a means and not as an end.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:15 pm

Elle's last post made me think that covering the story from the point of view of presentation and manipulation of the story by the media of the time could be very helpful.

I don't know yet if I'll be able to find enough documentation going back to that period, but I'll definitely give a try.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:34 pm

I'll share an eMail with you which I received from a local reporter a few days ago. Shows you the mindset...
Hi, I really think you are wasting your time.

As a reporter for The Arizona Republic, I covered the legal proceedings involving Debra Milke, James Styers and Roger Scott and am thoroughly acquainted with the facts of this case. There is no doubt that Styers and Scott took Christopher Milke and in the desert and murdered him. And I am not about to launch a crusade for Debra Milke. I don't know
how many times German and Swiss news reporters have contacted me with theories that Debra had nothing to do with her little boy's death. She sealed her fate during trial when Noel Levy, a deputy Maricopa County attorney, picked a little pair of cowboy boots that Christopher was wearing on the date he was shot in the head during a supposed trip to the mall for a visit with Santa Claus. Debra took one look at the boots and gave them a disgusted look, probably revealing to jurors her disdain for the little boy. There was testimony that Debra strongly disliked Christopher because he looked his father, Mark, who Debra absolutely detested. I fail to see how any discrepancy in the time would alter the facts of the case. Are you suggesting that some stranger abducted Christopher and took him out in the desert and murdered him and that the boy's mother was framed? Brent Whiting
I responded in my usual, thorough, in-love-with-detail way. Never got a response back from him...
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:34 am

roteoctober wrote:Elle's last post made me think that covering the story from the point of view of presentation and manipulation of the story by the media of the time could be very helpful.

I don't know yet if I'll be able to find enough documentation going back to that period, but I'll definitely give a try.
This one is dated Nov 7 1990:
IN COLDEST BLOOD
Apr 10 1991
THE MOTHER'S FATHER CONFESSOR
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:00 am

He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:16 am

@Hans

Thank you for the useful source: those articles are helpful to recreate the mood of the time and I hope to find more of them.
Even from just two of them a pattern of unfavorable bias can be clearly seen.
It is also interesting that a book favorable to Debra can soon be published.

@Rimrider
I'm sorry for the answer you got from Whiting: I suppose his recollections about the case have crystallized twenty years ago, a mood well represented by the articles linked by Hans. Now that he has entered the picture, I will also search for his articles of the time.
But what about Paul Huebl and his book? Isn't that a good opportunity?
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:29 am

Oh gosh, forget about this. I know this hack. He never got what the murder case is actually about, and all that he's aspiring for is to be in the limelight. A delusional personality... Exploiting the case is all he's after.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:36 am

roteoctober wrote:It is also interesting that a book favorable to Debra can soon be published.
But what about Paul Huebl and his book? Isn't that a good opportunity?
No, definitely not. Firstly, I hope he won't find a publisher. I'd have no probs with a decent book telling the story, but what is the use when Debra (and Styers) are still in prison? I don't see the use unless the convictions are overturned. Plus, Hubel hurt Debra's case more than he ever helped. My wish for Christmas is that he'll lose interest soon. Debra recently wrote him a letter, telling him to please back off from the case. Even her lawyers had to put some effort into that in order to set him straight. Renate Janka (Debra's mother) wrote one, Secretan did (a 'conspirator' to Huebl), and what did it help? Nothing. I think it'll go unnoticed.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:37 am

Leaving aside Huebl's personal shortcomings, my thought is that a book could be useful in changing the public opinion about the case.
You say that two previous books were unsuccessful, but if you think others (I don't refer specifically to Huebl's here) would equally fail, why are you making efforts to contact journalists?
I suppose they have to be useful in overturning the conviction, not just in writing down the story of the case after "someone", "somehow" has already overturned it.
Maybe as an European I've still in my historical memory Emile Zola's "J' accuse" role in overturning Dreyfus' coviction, and certainly you don't find a Zola every day but in my mind the role of articles and book in this context remains that.
However, if we can't trust Huebl, what's next, who can we lobby? Maybe 48 Hours Peter Van Saint, who did a good job in the Knox case?
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby pmop57 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:55 am

First : How CAN one transport the message that Saldate and Levy framed Debbie only to serve their personnal carreers and that they have acted the same way in multiple other cases.
Second : How CAN it be possible that a in a democratic system the word of one person can prevail the word of an other person, even if the other person is a cop (and in this case in disrespect of any judicial ruling). This is acting like dictatorship gets rid of its opponents.
Third : I cannot believe that this way of acting can be covered by the american constitution.
Fourth : Like the Amanda Knox case this case has all ingredients of witch hunting.
Fifth : The death sentence in general and especially in regard to this case.
These must to my opinion be the main axes and points of attack.
But I agree that the actions must be launched from Arizona, we must try to get allies in the State of Arizona. I also agree after some reflection that passing through institutions based outside US is not the good way.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:42 pm

roteoctober wrote:Leaving aside Huebl's personal shortcomings, my thought is that a book could be useful in changing the public opinion about the case.
Luca, I see where you are coming from. I agree, an investigative book may be a good idea. However, such a thing was done in the case of Darlier Routier, and never did anything.
http://www.amazon.com/Justice-Denied-Behind-Darlie-Routier/dp/0966945301/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351553829&sr=1-5&keywords=Routier%2C+Darlie
roteoctober wrote:You say that two previous books were unsuccessful, but if you think others (I don't refer specifically to Huebl's here) would equally fail, why are you making efforts to contact journalists?
Because I had hoped that some of these bastards would at least look at the evidence available, and start to write about the case in a more objective manner. But as I related, all these attempts were futile so far. Of course, it will be important to let the people of Arizona see what's going on in the justice system.
roteoctober wrote:However, if we can't trust Huebl, what's next, who can we lobby? Maybe 48 Hours Peter Van Saint, who did a good job in the Knox case?
I'm still waiting for word back from Jana Bommersbach. Keep your fingers crossed that I'm still able to talk to her. She would be the #1 choice anyway, due to her outstanding writing style. Plus, she's a local Arizonan.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:33 pm

Well, to arrive at the same level of impact that Zola had, a journalist or book writer should, hypothetically, write something like:

"I accuse former Detective Armando Saldate of having invented a non-existent confession, I accuse County Prosecutor Noel Levy of having suborned witnesses and of having hidden evidence favorable to the defense, I accuse Judge Cheryl K. Hendrix of having conspired with the Office of the Prosecution in order to convict an innocent."

I think that you won't find a Zola in Arizona and, these days, probably anywhere in the world.

However I wish you the best for your attempt with Jana Bommersbach.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Here's a text that Debra shared to be published on this blog:

http://obviousanswers.presspublisher.org/issue/fall-2012/article/twenty-one-years-ago
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 pm

I'm glad to hear that she goes on with fighting spirit: the same must be true of us all.
Unfortunately my job and now a cold have hampered my effort at producing a new article, but it is just a matter of time.
In the meantime let's try to post on this thread in a regular manner.
All contributions are warmly welcome, about details of the case, about the media factor, about everything.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:25 pm

On November 21. Bavarian Radio (Bayerischer Rundfunk) will air a half-hour show about Debra's case (in German):
http://www.br.de/fernsehen/bayerisches- ... 3f7b5.html
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:02 am

I hope our German speaking contributors will be able to listen to it and to make a short resume for the rest of us.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:52 am

roteoctober wrote:I hope our German speaking contributors will be able to listen to it and to make a short resume for the rest of us.
The BR has updated their page, it's a TV-programm (one that I should be able to watch):
Ein deutsch-amerikanisches Schicksal
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:33 pm

Something for tomorrow evening, I don't know where the "Bayrische Rundfunk"'s TV programme can be watched in Europe, but this is what I got on how to view it via the Astra sattelite:
Satellit digital (DVB-S): ASTRA 2C, Transponder 71, Frequenz 11,837 GHz, horizontale Polarisation, 27,5 MS / s, FEC D / e
Satellit digital (HDTV / DVB-S2): ASTRA 1L,Transponder 25, Frequenz 11,582 GHz, horizontale Polarisation, 22 MS / s, FEC C / d
(whatever all that means...)
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:09 pm

Hans, thanks for the details. Let me just say that I don't expect too much from that show. Pia Dangelmayer and Irmtraud Richardson were in Arizona last March. The result was a eight-minute show which was aired in a TV magazine ('Report') in April of the year. It is not a detailed coverage, rather a brief overview, also showing some of the people closest to Debra (her mother and a local supporter). Therefore I am not really expecting something earth-shaking :((:

[center]The initial show is on our YouTube channel too:

Watch on youtube.com
[/center]
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:19 pm

And what would be earth-shaking if in 2012 we have to read this:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2010/02/local_federal_judge_disagrees.php

The judge noted that Milke's recent testimony "appeared rehearsed and formulated to support her legal arguments."

As for Saldate, who these days is an elected Phoenix constable, he said he "did not report that [Milke] gave a straightforward confession of guilt as to her role in her son's murder, as he could have done if he were fabricating his account of the interrogation."


Congratulations to Saldate for his election, but for a judge to say those words...he seems not to conceive a that a case, above all one involving death penalty cannot be simply decided on the word of a police officer, no matter how (eventually) respected.

In practice since Saldate did not put an "I confess" in his (not her) confession, then he is believable...good indeed.

Maybe the judge should have asked himself why she was convicted if the "confession" was not even "straightforward"...but evidently the "procedure" doesn't provide for that kind of embarassing thoughts.

I can only hope that the higher Court sees it differently, but...
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Hans » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:04 pm

Back from watching the BR's report on Debra's case. It's build around the video in RimRider's last post...
I'll have to watch it again, before I "judge" it...
The Bayrische Rundfunk just added the video to the page I mentioned above...
http://www.br.de/fernsehen/bayerisches- ... e-100.html
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4545
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:11 pm

Watch on youtube.com
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:02 am

The report seems well done to me. Of course I could understand very little of the German dialogues but there were parts, like the one about Debra's belonging stored in that depository, whiche were very touching.
I also liked very much her final words about hoping to be finally released: they show that she has not lost hope.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Bruce Fischer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:36 pm

roteoctober wrote:The report seems well done to me. Of course I could understand very little of the German dialogues but there were parts, like the one about Debra's belonging stored in that depository, whiche were very touching.
I also liked very much her final words about hoping to be finally released: they show that she has not lost hope.


Its good to see the case continuing to get attention.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Dougm » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:49 pm

pmop57 wrote:<snip>
Second : How CAN it be possible that a in a democratic system the word of one person can prevail the word of an other person, even if the other person is a cop (and in this case in disrespect of any judicial ruling). This is acting like dictatorship gets rid of its opponents.


To me, this is what it boils down to. A woman (Debra) has been convicted (and put on death row!) based on the word of one other person, and nothing else. This is not only unfair, but is contradictory to everything that a democratic system of law is supposed to represent.

Not to dismiss your other points, pmop57, which were all good, but #2 is, to me, something that no one in America should argue against. Why should it be OK for someone to be convicted based on statements they allegedly made to one other person, who has no direct record that those statements ever occurred? I don't care if it was a police detective, or a priest, or the President, what they say she said is not enough to convict, especially of a capital crime. And especially when the story (that she wanted her son dead) makes no sense.
When you berate someone and push them and confuse them and lie to them and convince them that they're wrong you're not finding the truth.

Amanda Knox
Dougm
Moderator
 
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Bruce Fischer » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:21 am

Debra Milke videos can new be viewed at dailymotion.com.

http://www.dailymotion.com/DebraMilke
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:15 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:Debra Milke videos can new be viewed at dailymotion.com.
http://www.dailymotion.com/DebraMilke
Additionally to the YouTube channel. That one still exists :bop:
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:46 am

A Merry Christmas and a Happy new Year to all of you! :tree:

:gift: The sixth and last film clip is now 'on air':

[BBvideo 425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cShQAURU9Ks[/BBvideo]
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:58 pm

And Best Wishes for a Joyful Christmas to you and of course also to Debra (if just she could receive them)!

:tree: :bells: :santa:

May 2013 be the Year of Freedom for Debra.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby Norm51 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:23 pm

I have looked for ways to write Debra - can anyone supply me with that info?
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:29 pm

Norm51 wrote:I have looked for ways to write Debra - can anyone supply me with that info?


You have a PM :winks:
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:39 pm

roteoctober wrote:You have a PM :winks:
He had two PMs :lol:


A new text... How do you guys like this one?

How the Arizonan Government Exploits the Death of a Murdered Child
Friday, December 28, 2012 •

December 1989 - a 4 y.o. boy was killed in a desert area north-west of Phoenix: Christopher Milke. Within a day police presented three suspects, claiming that they conspired to have the 4 y.o. killed. Conspired? Was it the president of the United States, or the pope, some famous rock star, or a big banker who was going to be the victim? No, it was a four year old child. And according to this incredible story of the State of Arizona, the actual trigger man supposedly needed a driver. Now, while 95% of the world would laugh about such an unbelievable story, the government of Arizona managed to get the killed boy's mother indicted and even convicted on the claim that she was the mastermind behind the homicide. She, her room mate, and a friend of the room mate were sentenced to die.

But what happened really? On December 2nd, 1989 police interrogated a suspect, who would get caught in a web of contradicting falsehoods, and pointed the finger at his buddy JAMES STYERS, who was at the same time the room mate of the boy's mother, DEBRA MILKE. After STYERS was arrested he refused to talk to police, and that caused a problem to the case lead detective. After SCOTT led police to the murdered boy's corpse in the desert, two Phoenix police detectives were sent in a car to interview the boy's mother DEBRA MILKE, who had gone with her step-mother and step-sister to be with her father's family and wait to hear about her missing boy. Upon STYERS' refusal to talk to police the case lead detective halted his fellow detectives; they were ordered via radio 'not to talk to the mother' but to guard her and make sure she would not leave. The case lead detective then rushed to Florence himself using a helicopter, created a situation where he was alone in a room, without a witness or a tape-recorder present. Upon emerging from that room after a 25 minute interview the mother was neither handcuffed, nor was she supposed to talk to anyone. He placed her in a car and brought her back to Phoenix.

Three days later he claimed that she confessed to a conspiracy to have the little boy killed, and the motive supposedly was to cash in on a life insurance policy. Is this what really happened?

The claim of the state was that the two men, SCOTT and STYERS, took the boy to a pizza parlor where he had his 'last meal' and was then taken to the desert where he was killed. This happened - supposedly - between 1 and 2.45 p.m. Interestingly various police reports contradict this claim: SCOTT'S was seen by three independent witnesses within 45 minutes and a three-miles distance only. Reconstructing the timeline of the day that CHRISTOPHER MILKE died we can see that he must have been killed at 11 a.m. Four local witnesses testified that they heard five to seven shots around that time, which were fired in two series, with a few minutes break in between. This story is totally conflicting with the claim that the boy's murder was premeditated. What were the two series of shots about?

STYERS had purchased two guns on the weekend preceding to the homicide; one for himself, one for his high school buddy ROGER SCOTT. Phoenix police never investigated this true scenario, and so we can only reach a conclusion using our own common sense: Can we imagine a scenario where the first series killed the boy, and the two men then continued 'target practicing'? Hardly... It was obviously the second series of shots which killed CHRISTOPHER MILKE - but what was the first series about? Without MILKE'S knowledge STYERS drove over to SCOTT'S apartment on that morning in order to give him the gun. That gun was later found in SCOTT'S apartment. Interestingly a fellow inmate of SCOTT, ROBERT E. JOHNSON, told the prosecution's investigator that SCOTT had confessed this scenario to him, and that he had killed CHRISTOPHER MILKE.

After SCOTT shot CHRISTOPHER, STYERS and SCOTT went to the pizza restaurant where they obviously concocted a plan to claim that CHRISTOPHER was missing from a public restroom. That was STYERS' occasion to distance himself from the murder as far as possible, but also to cover his irresponsibility toward DEBRA MILKE (whom he had promised never to subject the little boy to the presence of a gun). STYERS dropped SCOTT off at an Osco Drugs store and drove to the Metro Center himself. Only two hours later SCOTT showed up there, presumably in order to confirm STYERS' story, that he had seen JIM STYERS together with CHRISTOPHER. STYERS confessed to this in one of his letters to DEBRA, already in prison.

But why the purported confession? Only by alleging the uncorroborated confession of MILKE (not signed, not tape-recorded, not witnessed), and claiming that STYERS was the actual culprit, the state managed to get all three individuals on death row. In fact, all documents clearly show that any other scenario but STYERS being the actual trigger man was excluded by the county prosecution from day #1. This, plus allowing the fabricated confession of MILKE into evidence, is the ultimate error in this DP case. There is not a single indication in the file that STYERS would want CHRISTOPHER dead.

If we allow such tactics to turn out successful, then we all should be scared.
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

Re: Debra Milke

Postby roteoctober » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:43 am

Seems a good resume of the main points of the case to me.

In my opinion the Styers-Scott relationship should be further expanded upon: what gives a minimum of credibility to the prosecution case in face of the big public is that Styers and Scott indeed conspired (even if just to try to suggest an abduction) and this fact may be read by some as an element somehow supporting the wider conspiracy alleged by the prosecution.

So IMO we should try to give the best answer to the following question: "Why did Styers, if innocent of murder and of conspiracy in murder, help Scott instead of simply denouncing him?"

This is possibly going to be a too long answer for the introductory text you just quoted, however I think that even there a few more words about this subject should be spent.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke

Postby RimRider » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:55 am

roteoctober wrote:So IMO we should try to give the best answer to the following question: "Why did Styers, if innocent of murder and of conspiracy in murder, help Scott instead of simply denouncing him?"
What do you mean by that? STYERS never attempted to 'help' SCOTT. STYERS plainly had no faith in the authorities (and therefore decided to concoct the plan at the Metro Center [where he initially intended to go with CHRIS and his own daughter WENDY]). That's why going to the Metro Center and claiming that CHRISTOPHER was missing there was supported by SCOTT (who showed up at the shopping mall two hours later, around 4 p.m.). STYERS would again mention SCOTT (see our film clip #6) at around midnight. Why? Because SCOTT - after having shot CHRIS - was supposed to help STYERS talk himself out of the irresponsibility of subjecting the little boy to the presence of a gun (and worse: that gun in the hand of SCOTT). So, I think you should start looking at it like this.

Yet, I don't think all this belongs into the text. What STYERS is going to do is much less my concern than Debra, but the truth is: This entire setup is well known up to the highest ranks in the Arizonan government. That is what I truly find scary. If I can see it, all these highly-paid, supposedly respected (not by me!) judges and justices should have seen it as well, right?
User avatar
RimRider
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:12 am
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ

PreviousNext

Return to Debra Milke Case

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests