Debra Milke Case Discussion

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:52 pm

Ok. I think it's best to start with the question : who had a genuine motive to murder Christopher?

I think it's Jim Styers. He was sexually infatuated with Debra, and Christopher is in the way.
Debra is leaving - she is getting her own place. Styers is losing control over Debra, he wants Debra enough to kill Christopher.
I think he perhaps hopes that Mark Milke will be suspected of abducting Christopher.
At any rate, with Christopher gone, Debra becomes available.
Sex is a pretty strong motive. Child abuse, even murder of "step" children is common.
This is a basic "animal" instinct - the urge to reproduce. Some people will use violence to achieve this.
Debra is leaving : this is domestic violence. Styers kills Christopher to exert control over Debra.

Does anyone have an alternative person with a credible motive?
Of course this is just a starting hypothesis.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology)
"Infanticide caused by sexual conflict has the general theme of the killer (often male) becoming the new sexual partner of the victim's parent, which would otherwise be unavailable."
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:21 pm

Jim Styers had himself a little daughter. He was never accused for child abuse, in contrary he was most time described as a caring father (also by the mother of his child). Debra Milke considered him the same way. There also never was a sexual relationship between Jim Styers and Debra Milke.
The more I have been reading about the case and the inconsisties in the investigation quite well described by RimRider I tend clearly to suppose that it was Roger Scott who shot Christopher. Roger Scott was psychologically instable with a very low IQ. He probably was carrying the arm when the three started to return to the car after a first shooting to test the arm. Than Roger Scott was for no appearant reason shooting three times at the boys head. This was the second series of shooting witnessed by two persons living in the neighbourhood. For me this scenario seems rather plausible.
Concerning Christopher's father I don't know, he had an alibi and was rather far away from the crime scene the moment of the shooting. If there was a relationship between him and Scott, I don't know.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:30 pm

What was Scott's motive though? And why would Styers go along with it? This was a planned murder. It was not a random killing. There was more than one attempt.

It makes no difference that there was no sexual relationship - Styers wanted the relationship, he wanted more children, perhaps he wants a mother for his existing child, and Christopher is in the way.

I'm not looking at any details here : I'm asking the basic, fundamental question : "what was the motive?". There has to be a genuine motive for a premeditated murder.

The only motive for infanticide that I know of is sexual. We are very like other animals. Mostly we suppress animal urges, but sometimes that suppression fails.
That's why rape exists, it's a reproductive strategy for those who cannot get a proper mate.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:40 pm

I should say that sometimes very depressed mothers kill their own children and then themselves. But this is not the case here.
In such cases the mother (if she fails to kill herself) confesses immediately, and remains suicidal.
The case of Christina Marie Riggs is an example.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:49 pm

geebee2 wrote:I should say that sometimes very depressed mothers kill their own children and then themselves. But this is not the case here.
In such cases the mother (if she fails to kill herself) confesses immediately, and remains suicidal.

But the contrary was the case, she just was starting to remake her life with Christopher, she had found a living place for her and her son, she had got a new job, well paid, and a job would have liked to do, she had organized a Kindergarten for Christopher, ... . So why all this if she had other plans, ... . She would never have harmed her son. There was never any sign to harm her child, never. All this was invented by Armando Saldate and perfectionned by prosecutor Noel Levy. Read the final Court statements by Levy and how he manipulated the jury.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:05 pm

pmop57 wrote:
geebee2 wrote:I should say that sometimes very depressed mothers kill their own children and then themselves. But this is not the case here.
In such cases the mother (if she fails to kill herself) confesses immediately, and remains suicidal.

But the contrary was the case, she just was starting to remake her life with Christopher, she had found a living place for her and her son, she had got a new job, well paid, and a job would have liked to do, she had organized a Kindergarten for Christopher, ... . So why all this if she had other plans, ... . She would never have harmed her son. There was never any sign to harm her child, never. All this was invented by Armando Saldate and perfectionned by prosecutor Noel Levy. Read the final Court statements by Levy and how he manipulated the jury.


pmop

That's all correct. there is no doubt whatsoever that Debra is innocent ( did you miss my bolded text? ).
What I want to do is to get to the bottom of what actually happened though.
There is no clear account yet of that.
I'm beginning to get a very strong idea though, and motive is the place to start.

This article has some very interesting details:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... trial.html

Especially:

Meanwhile, Styers is sticking to his story that Milke knew nothing about the murder. Timothy Ring contacted Voepel and Kimerer in May. Ring spent time on death row before he was resentenced to life in prison after his landmark Supreme Court decision, which changed the way death penalties are imposed in the U.S.

He had a cell near Styers. According to a transcript of a phone conversation obtained by The Republic, Ring told the attorneys that Styers was considering telling the world that Milke had nothing to do with the murder in his last words before being executed.

Ring was asked why he would wait until the last minute.

The answer, Ring said, was, “ ‘I might do that. You know,’ he goes, ‘but if I come up and say anything now, that’s just guaranteeing my own execution. ... I can’t say anything about her innocence without saying my own guilt.’ ”


I think this is the truth. Jim Styers murdered Christopher when the sexual urge was too strong to stop him - when Debra was about to leave.
Domestic violence murders almost always occur when the woman is leaving - it's the strongest risk factor.

I have a lot of work to do to consider how this fits all the statements and evidence, but my very strong intuition is that this is the correct explanation.
Scott was hopeless as a witness, he could be lead into agreeing with anything ( even incriminating himself ).
I think Styers needed Scott -possibly because Debra would not have let Styers take Christopher on his own.
I don't think Scott invented things - he was duped by Styers. Possibly Styers had some hold over him.
I think his first account when he confessed is correct. Styers fired the shot.
Then Saldate misunderstood Scott, and thought Debra was involved as well, and twisted Scott's words - or Saldate knew that Styers would be hard to convict, since he refused to say anything without a lawyer.

If I'm right : I think Scott should not be executed : he was manipulated into helping Scott, he is low intelligence, like a child, similar to Saldate.
Jim Styers : well, we is utterly despicable. But "worst of the worst" ? True, he murdered a child. But it is one-off ( or is it - I wouldn't be at all surprised if he has history ).
But then he has refused to tell the truth, and let Debra sit on death for for 20 years, thinking he might save his own skin.
Well, as a death penalty opponent, I feel conflicted. about Styers. Perhaps he was corrupted by his experiences in Vietnam.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Alex_K » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:21 pm

There was a reason why that confession by Scott was not allowed into the evidence at the first trial. Does anybody know it?
Alex_K
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:16 am

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:55 pm

Alex_K wrote:There was a reason why that confession by Scott was not allowed into the evidence at the first trial. Does anybody know it?

It was rambling and inconsistent... also, IMO, hearsay.

But it was admitted in Scott's own trial (the last trial), and was used to convict Scott. Scott has low IQ, easily manipulated.

Scott was used - by Styers, by Saldate, by Levy. He may also be guilty (of what?), but I believe Styers was the instigator.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:02 pm

I am consolidating my speculation here: http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Speculation

Note: nobody has responded to the basic question: "Does anyone have an alternative person (to Styers) with a credible motive?"
I don't believe there is an answer to this question : which implies Styers was the instigator and Scott was used by Styers.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:08 am

Ok, here is what I now have at http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/What+happened
For links see actual page.

Motive for infanticide
I think it's best to start with motive : who had a genuine, credible, primary motive to murder Christopher?
This was premeditated murder, there were two attempts, after the first was aborted. There has to be a strong primary motive.

I think it's Jim Styers. The motive was sexual. He was sexually infatuated with Debra, and Christopher is in the way.
Debra is leaving - she is getting her own place. Jim Styers is losing control over Debra, he wants Debra enough to kill Christopher.
Either as a mother for his own child and/or as a mother for more of his own children. Debra was very desirable to him.

[I think he perhaps hopes that Mark Milke will be suspected of abducting Christopher.][Not sure about this yet]

At any rate, with Christopher gone, Debra becomes available, her reason for leaving (distrust of Jim Styers re Christopher ) is eliminated.
He is cunning enough to conceal his murderous thoughts ( perhaps they only take hold when he is frustrated that Debra is leaving ).

Sex is a pretty strong motive. Child abuse, even murder of "step" children is common.
This is a basic "animal" instinct - the urge to reproduce, to favour one's own genes. Some people will use violence to achieve this ( as in rape ).
Debra is leaving : this is domestic violence. Jim Styers murders Christopher to exert control over Debra, he wants her as a sexual partner,

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology)
"Infanticide caused by sexual conflict has the general theme of the killer (often male) becoming the new sexual partner of the victim's parent, which would otherwise be unavailable."
Also think of the Cuckoo.
Humans unfortunately sometimes act like animals.

I do not see another person with a credible motive.

Evidence against Jim Styers:
(1) Jim Styers made the false missing person report. He is the manipulator.
(2) Jim Styers refused to speak to the police. This can signify innocence, but we know full well Styers was/is not innocent.
This is further evidence that Styers was/is the instigator. He is relatively smart and cunning. He devised the plan. He was prepared for when the police called.
(3) See Timothy Ring

Detail
Jim Styers wants Christopher out of the way, so Debra can be his partner.
He decides to murder Christopher and make out that Christopher is missing ( with suspicion falling on Mark Milke ).

Jim Styers recruits Roger Scott, telling him that Debra wants her son killed, and Scott bought it (low IQ). He was to be paid just $250.
Perhaps Jim Styers had some hold over Roger Scott - they were long term friends.
Perhaps Jim Styers also planted the suggestion that Mark Milke was involved.
But it all rapidly went wrong when Roger Scott confessed under pressure from Saldate.
However Roger Scott's confession was misinterpreted by Saldate, who also bought Jim Styers' original suggestion to Roger Scott.
Both Roger Scott and Saldate are low intelligence and gullible, they believe Debra could have wanted her son to be killed, they don't suspect Jim Styers of planting this lie.
It's possible both Roger Scott and/or Jim Styers have knowledge of other crimes that prevent them testifying against each other.
Jim Styers has long history of failed relationships with women - typical DV abuser profile.
Probably originated from Vietnam experiences, military service produces many abusers - emotionally damaged men, who have trouble forming stable relationships with women.

The main point
Jim Styers told or suggested to Roger Scott that Debra wanted Christopher killed, as a lever to get his co-operation. But it was not true.
Everything points to Jim Styers being the mastermind.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:25 am

My main point (besides the point that Jim Styers is the person with a credible motive), is this:

Both Roger Scott and Saldate are low intelligence and gullible, they believe Debra could have wanted her son to be killed, they don't suspect Jim Styers of lying about this.

Roger Scott's statements are now consistent : Roger just didn't realise that Styers had lied to him, or if he did, he didn't manage to communicate that.

Saldate wants to "get the job done". So he interviews Debra, and when she doesn't confess, he doesn't believe her and twists whatever she said into a confession.
Then he fabricates as required to finish things off, he "knows" Debra is guilty, but it's wrong.
A typical corrupt cop, taking shortcuts - manufacturing evidence to confirm his mistaken belief.

The whole story now seems to make perfect sense, especially Roger Scott's statements ( which were all true, to his knowledge ).
It's odd for a guilty person to confess and then not tell the truth. That didn't happen.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:21 am

The key question that was never asked of Roger Scott : "How did you know that Debra wanted Christopher to be killed?"

Roger would have said: "Because Jim Styers told me so."

Jim Styers was the instigator, the manipulator, the liar - but we never heard the lie, it is hidden.

Saldate also lied. Roger Scott was a fool.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:16 pm

"Arias trial fallout: Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz will not allow electronic devices at Debra Milke's hearing Wednesday."

https://twitter.com/michaelbkiefer/stat ... 4181528577
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:21 pm

Geebee, have you carefully read the material on the www.debbiemilke.com site?
The idea I got from the site is that if I should bet my money I'd rather bet on Scott than on Styers.
Of course officially Styers was the one who pulled the trigger, but officially also Debra was guilty.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:46 pm

Ok. I'm going to say that I have communicated with "frankie", who has done so much work on the case, and is the webmaster at http://www.debramilke.com/
He asserts that my suggested motive was "unbelieveable". I disagree. Another reference: google for "Children killed by genetic parents versus stepparents" by G.T. Harris et. al., 2007.
( Somehow I obtained a free, full copy... )

We briefly discussed this : http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Timothy+Ring
Frankie said that he thought it was Scott not Styers who was heard by Ring, and was going to check.

I have also read just read this: http://www.debbiemilke.com/en/media/tru ... eR5-o1wqgY "True Crime, January 2013, by Olga Bogaerts"
which also gives (close enough, in lay terms) my view on what happened :

"It was speculated that he reasoned that if Debra lost the one person she most treasured, her son, she would have nobody left but Styers himself, and she would therefore continue living with him."

The "True Crime" article also says:

"The jury could have some sympathy for a Vietnam veteran mentally and physically disabled by all he'd been through. He was still plagued by "survivor guilt," by memories of how he'd had to shoot women and children in case they were wired with explosives to kill him. Finally he'd been thrown from a jeep, landing on his head and suffering brain damage that put him in a coma for months. And on coming round he'd forgotten not only who he was but also how to walk and talk. Months of rehabilitation had followed before he was able to return to civilian life, permanently psychologically disabled. "

which hints that Styers may have been seriously disturbed ( as well as Roger Scott ).

I recommend reading the full "True Crime" article (ignoring Frankie's commentary first time through), it very much aligns with my thoughts.
( I'm not saying all of Frankie's criticisms of the article are wrong - mostly I believe they are correct )
The original is here : http://truecrimelibrary.com/item_detail ... cat_id=163
but the copy Frankie provides is fine.

I'm sticking with the idea that it was Styers who planned and instigated the murder.
He was strongly attracted to Debra and got access to her when she was very vulnerable as she left Mark Milke.
I think it's by far the best fit to the evidence, particularly of Scott, and is the only credible motive.
Frankie seems to think that the case against Jim Styers is weak - I think that's just plain wrong.

We do of course agree that Debra Milke is entirely innocent.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:20 pm

Additionally, in that article we have

"An unemployed Vietnam veteran on a small government pension, he [Styers] was receiving psychiatric treatment and was under heavy medication."

That I think could be a basis for Jim Styers to claim clemency : he could certainly argue that the heavy medication caused or contributed to his behaviour ( Ruth Ellis anyone? )

Jim Styers did meet with Roger Scott, who was drinking very heavily (alcoholic I think). Roger Scott asserted that Jim Styers hated Christopher, I don't think he made that up.

The article says "But nobody could fault his behaviour towards Debra, and she was too preoccupied with getting her life back together to have any suspicions."
However Roger Scott stated that Jim Styers hated Christopher, so "nobody" is plain wrong here. Frankie suggests this was a self-serving lie. I don't buy that.

I don't think Roger Scott made anything up - the simplest hypothesis is that he told the truth as he saw it - Jim Styers had convinced him that Debra wanted Christopher dead. Roger Scott was very easily led. Perhaps some remark of Debra made had been twisted by Styers - the same remark I think that Saldate also twisted/misinterpreted.

That is "That she just had to get away from him and she just wasn't cut out to be a mother ..."
Here "him" can be Mark Milke not Christopher, and either way she may have well said that in a moment of depression.
Perhaps she was thinking of giving care of Christopher to some other relation, because she felt inadequate as a mother.
But she certainly did not mean she wanted Christopher dead, she is simply thinking like so many mothers about what would be best for Christopher.
Note: domestic violence from Mark Milke would certainly have reduced Debra's self-esteem/self-belief, leading to such thoughts.

Put simply : Jim Styers fooled Debra then, and is still fooling her today - she still does not fully believe that Jim Styers murdered her son. But the evidence proves that he did.
Again, the heavy medication Jim Styers was under may well have contributed to or caused such deviant behaviour.
Jim Styer's psychiatrist would be a potential witness ( if still alive ). Was he ever called as a witness in any of the trials?

What Debra's attorneys believe I do not know, but my intuition is screaming that it's essential for them to know the truth to effectively represent Debra.

That one of Debra's close long term supporters (in close contact with her legal team) is (IMO or course) under a misapprehension worries me.

The hold of a domestic violence abuser is very strong - Debra is still partially under the spell, minimising Jim Styers role.

I suggest that if Debra's defense had called Roger Scott all those years ago and asked him why/how he thought Debra was involved, Debra would not IMO have been convicted, Jim Styers would have been exposed.

At the very least Debras attorneys should interview Roger Scott ( they may well have done so, or be going to do so, I do not know ).
And ask him WHY he said what he did.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:50 pm

Another issue : I want to know what medication Jim Styers was under. That could be crucial. Does anyone know?

At any rate, I believe that Jim Styers experience in Vietnam, and/or the medication he was on, perhaps mixed with alcohol, turned him (perhaps temporarily) into a "monster" - very convincing to almost everyone, but with a very dark side, when his animal instincts were not fully suppressed as with normal people. Like many abusers, who often appear to be charming in public until the mask slips.

It just is NOT possible to "spot" these people. You cannot say that Debra's opinion that Jim Styers "could not have done it" means anything.
This is what Frankie argues. I think he is too close to Debra to have the correct perspective.

We know from the evidence that Jim Styers certainly did plot to murder Christopher, regardless of who pulled the trigger.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:36 am

geebee2 wrote:Another issue : I want to know what medication Jim Styers was under. That could be crucial. Does anyone know?

At any rate, I believe that Jim Styers experience in Vietnam, and/or the medication he was on, perhaps mixed with alcohol, turned him (perhaps temporarily) into a "monster" - very convincing to almost everyone, but with a very dark side, when his animal instincts were not fully suppressed as with normal people. Like many abusers, who often appear to be charming in public until the mask slips.

It just is NOT possible to "spot" these people. You cannot say that Debra's opinion that Jim Styers "could not have done it" means anything.
This is what Frankie argues. I think he is too close to Debra to have the correct perspective.

We know from the evidence that Jim Styers certainly did plot to murder Christopher, regardless of who pulled the trigger.


GeeBee!
One further possibility: The issues of Roger Scott could be very similar, he also is a very "disturbed" personnality with low intelligence and probably low self-esteem. Jim Styers was his "friend", probably he had not so much friends, he could also have feared to lose one of his rare "fix" points in life. He could very well see Jim Styers leaving with Debra Milke and hope that if Christopher was dead the situation could change for him (without any profound reasoning behind).
My believe is that this killing was spontanous, not a log hand planned act. Remember the two series of shooting. After the first series of shooting Roger Scott was in possession of the gun, he was supposed to carry it at his home, because Jim Styers did not want to show up with a gun in front of Debra Milke. This was the moment for Roger Scott to act, the spontanous power of the "moment" the gun procured, the "immediate" possibility to solve all problems!
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:46 am

I have been chatting a bit with Michael Kiefer on the case.

http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Twitter+conversations

Always best to understand opposing points of view.

Also note, questions and answers sometimes get mixed up, so interpret with care!
( Michael is a court reporter - please understand his job - which is to report, often from official POV, his reports are often very useful )
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Hans » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:00 pm

Image...
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:57 pm

geebee2 wrote:"Arias trial fallout: Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz will not allow electronic devices at Debra Milke's hearing Wednesday."

https://twitter.com/michaelbkiefer/stat ... 4181528577


What is she afraid of?
What is she hiding from the public?
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Grayhawker wrote:
geebee2 wrote:"Arias trial fallout: Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz will not allow electronic devices at Debra Milke's hearing Wednesday."

https://twitter.com/michaelbkiefer/stat ... 4181528577

What is she afraid of?
What is she hiding from the public?

I do not think that interpretation is correct. I think it's to ensure proper reporting of court proceedings, something like
(i) To ensure that sealed prejudicial information does not leak out.
(ii) To ensure that proceedings are reported accurately and not have a circus develop (more like we have in the UK).
But the thing to do is to ask Michael Kiefer to clarify. I suggest you do so by twitter.

Historic note: the other hearing was NOT live-streamed and after much confusion, no oral argument occurred.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:52 pm

Just to note that I asked Michael Kiefer to clarify, and he has now responded: https://twitter.com/michaelbkiefer/stat ... 4181528577

"In Arizona, judges have discretion over the use of cell phones and computers in courtrooms and are paranoid about cell cameras."

"It may become a first amendment issue as trial nears. The general public was not allowed to use them during the Arias trial."
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:15 am

An opinion article. He openly states: "I believe she is guilty."

You may like to leave a comment.

http://www.azcentral.com/insiders/ejmon ... ice-versa/

In my comments, perhaps I let my anger and outrage show too much.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:36 am

My comment:

"I believe she is guilty." ...anybody is entitled to his/her own beliefs, but when such a sensitive issue is the subject of a published work one should, in my opinion, motivate that belief with something or alternatively state in writing that it is just a gut feeling.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:24 am

roteoctober wrote:My comment:

"I believe she is guilty." ...anybody is entitled to his/her own beliefs, but when such a sensitive issue is the subject of a published work one should, in my opinion, motivate that belief with something or alternatively state in writing that it is just a gut feeling.


I cannot see your comment.. maybe it was on earlier article?

Anyway, I tweeted him: https://twitter.com/geebee_22/status/359285556447936514
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:00 am

geebee2 wrote:
roteoctober wrote:My comment:

"I believe she is guilty." ...anybody is entitled to his/her own beliefs, but when such a sensitive issue is the subject of a published work one should, in my opinion, motivate that belief with something or alternatively state in writing that it is just a gut feeling.


I cannot see your comment.. maybe it was on earlier article?

Anyway, I tweeted him: https://twitter.com/geebee_22/status/359285556447936514


No, I commented the article you linked and I can see my comment as of now. I commented as "Red October", maybe not the best moniker from an Arizonian POV! :lol:
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:34 pm

Big Daily Mail article yesterday which I missed unfortunately, so I didn't leave a comment, the comments are now closed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eedom.html

I reported two of the comments, suggesting they be removed.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:33 am

Does anybody know what happened to the ex-prosecutor Noel Levy in this case? Isn't he also responsable for the miscarriage of justice in this case?
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby RoseMontague » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:35 am

I hope she gets bail. I can't see any valid reason not to at least grant her bail.
User avatar
RoseMontague
 
Posts: 3526
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:49 am

RoseMontague wrote:I hope she gets bail. I can't see any valid reason not to at least grant her bail.


Given there is no end to the abuse Debbie has suffered, at the hands of Saldate, Levy, the MCAO, her incompetent (original) attorney, Mark Milke, Jim Styers and Roger Scott...and others I will not name here, I find it impossible to make any predictions.
(1) I hope the charges are entirely dropped and Debbie is awarded massive compensation. If not...
(2) I hope the MCAO is disqualified. and/or
(3) I hope she is given bail.
But with such serial and systematic abuse, and disregard for higher courts, prediction seems futile.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Norm51 » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:45 pm

Wrongful convictions sure look the same everywhere. That subject has been discussed many times in here. Pride trumps fairness every time. And at the end of the day - these guys get to keep their jobs. That's the part I don't get.

Waiting for something to go right... Does anyone have any news yet about the above mentioned actions today?
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:22 pm

Bond hearing postponed to end of month. Will hear petition to remove prosecutor from case.
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:40 am

My hope and pray is that Debra will be given the opportunity and fortune to enfold her mother as a free women.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:55 am

Having "processed" everything, I think yesterday went well, even though Debra is STILL in jail, months after the federal court practically declared her innocent. WTF...

Key point is that Judge Mroz ruled that Saldate’s bad behavior would not be suppressed. ( well, that wasn't too hard, surely ).
I cannot see how Mroz can possibly admit the so-called confession after the federal court barred it's use.
Good to see no comments at the Daily Mail ( and a good article ) :)
It seems to me the press are solidly behind Debra, which is good.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:47 pm

You would think they could allow an escorted visit with her mother.

If they don't, this could be chalked up to more pain and suffering that Arizon will be held into account for.
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:59 pm

Two minute entries have been posted. See http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Minut ... #x1Aug2013

Note:
In first "The Court admonishes the parties..."
In second "The Court misread the e-file certification. The Motion for Clarification was filed at 3:07:32 p.m. and the Court apologizes to the parties for misstating the record"

Somehow I am refraining from uttering a bad word.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby jlroberts4 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:11 pm

I agree with Jeff Beverly. I was going to write all that because it is just shocking. I was in Perryville prison with Milke, as they call her. Everyone said and thought she was a child killer. Worst of the worst in prison.The inmates and the guards. So I thought so too. During R&A (Perryville's holding area until classification) they kept new inmates on the same yard as death row but in different pods. We would see her from our room door window when they would let her out for "exercise" in a cage like a dog. (same kind of cage that a woman died in at Perryville a couple years ago from neglect and heat exposure) Everyone would say...there's Milke! She killed all her kids. So in typical prison gossip fashion, the story had mutated into her having more than one kid and killing them all herself. Reading all these latest developments is relieving. Prison is awful as it is if you're just there for a drug crime, like I was, without swirling rumors making this poor woman out to be some kind of monster. In the time I spent at Perryville, on Lumley and then Santa Maria for 5 years, I saw and heard many things. Corrupt officers were abundant. Back stabbing women were the usual rule. You couldn't trust anyone. It was a bad experience, as I'm sure prison is meant to be, but I feel so bad for her. Its tough to be there for five years with relative freedoms on the minimum yard when you are guilty, I can't IMAGINE being there the amount of time she has, going through MUCH worse than I did, being innocent. I saw first hand, several, several instances of misconduct by guards in both county jail and prison in Arizona. Who knows what has happened to her all these years? I know how the inmates treated her and know there are corrupt guards there, so I bet she has been treated poorly in ALL the years she's been there. I would like to say I am shocked by her railroad conviction and subsequent treatment, but living in Arizona all my life, and having been shoved through the court and prison systems here, unfortunately, I am NOT shocked that that detective got away with getting her convicted with a fake confession. Take 15 minutes and read Joe Arapio's Wikipedia page and ask yourself HOW does he continue to get re-elected? If felons were allowed to vote? (another topic I could write a LOT about) He would not be the sheriff. I know it wasn't "Sheriff Joe" in office when Debra was railroaded, but that's even worse! That shows Arizona has been corrupt since before "Joe's" reign. I know it sounds like I am ranting, and I may be a bit and I don't mean to cover all of Arizona and all police and judges; Arizona's justice system with the corrupt blanket. I just know the side I have seen. In prison the inmates say Arizona is a "Cowboy State", meaning the cops (and I am sure not ALL of them) are cowboys. Prideful, reckless and out for blood. Eager to slap a sentence on someone. Lock em UP! That is the attitude and its common knowledge. There are many fishy convictions in Arizona. I got to know many girls in prison. Most of them, including me and contrary to public opnion, admit their guilt. You always hear, "Oh everyone in prison SAYS they are innocent!" That's not true. For Milke to claim innocence all this time, with no contact with other inmates, no one to impress and nothing to prove to anyone on the yard, speaks volumes. I believe she is innocent or in the LEAST fast tracked right into guilty and a death sentence. Who has heard of a veteran detective taking a confession in a child murder case in half an hour with no recording going on? Watch an episode of Dateline or 48 hours, they show 2 detectives in the room. Audio and video recording going on. 9 hours, 20 hours of going over and over the evidence and what has been said. Confessions typed up and signed. Standard OP. But this stellar detective got 3 confessions in an hour? Uh-huh. Also, typically, people held in country jail on a murder charge are fighting their cases for 4 years or so before actual trial! I read Debra was sentenced within a year or something crazy like that. Also given a DUI public defender? Really? I also read this "star" closer detective was called in on his day off to come save the day and while he was alone in the room with Debra taking her "confession" that she hadn't signed a Miranda waiver? To me, just reading these few facts about her case, before I dug deeper, that those things alone were extreme enough to get her a new trial. Inadequate council. Miranda...all of it. Sounds and is ludicrous. In the 5 years I was at Perryville on a drug charge, at one point I had an 18 year old thug roomate. Illiterate. Poor upbringing. Bad family life. She had stolen her moms truck to go out partying with 2 of her female cousins. They were drinking. She flipped the truck, totaled it, killed one of her cousins and severely injured herself and her other cousin. How many crimes is that? Grand theft auto. Underage drinking. Drinking and driving. Manslaughter. And whatever charge it is called when you destroy a vehicle you have stolen and the other charge of injuring her other cousin. Reckless endangerment probably. She got sentenced to 2.5 years. That's it! There I sat sentenced to 10 years alltogether, for possession and paraphernalia running concurrent so I served 5, and she did ALL that and got 2.5? This shocked me every day I looked at her. The courts reasoning for the light sentence was because of her childhood and illiteracy. What is wrong with our justice system? And Milke sits there all these years from a crooked cops false confession? And guess what? That roommate I was just talking about? She ended up doing the rest of her time in the hole. Why you ask? Oh! Well that would be because one of the correction officers was having sex with her best friend and so to get my roommate not to tell, this officer brought my roommate burritos, McDonalds, makeup, and some vodka. Since she was acting strangely on the yard another officer approached her and discovered she had been drinking and searched our room. That is when they pulled the alcohol and McDonalds and everything else she had been given by the officer out of our room. Luckily, I was never in the room. Always at work and school. So I only learned of what was going on after the fact. She did not get any more charges or more years tacked onto her sentence even though possessing prison contraband can get you more time. This is just one example of what I saw in the five years I was there. Again. My point being the Arizona justice system and corrections system is twisted and dirty. I am glad that Milke is getting out or getting a new trial or at least noticed and believed after all this time. After having been slammed through the system myself it is good to hear that she is finally getting the truth out. Once they lock you up there and throw away the key you pretty much have no hope.I congratulate her for maintaining her innocence and I congratulate the courts for recognizing, finally, the corruption and unfairness that goes on. Maybe there is light and hope at the end of the tunnel for Arizona's judicial system.
jlroberts4
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:52 am

Thank you jlroberts4, yours is a very poignant and important testimony about how the system works as seen from the inside, the wrong and unpleasant inside, indeed, but nevertheless a point of view the average member of this forum hasn't, fortunately, I must say, experienced.

I live in a far away country with its own noteworhty problems concerning the judiciary system, but nevertheless Arizona struck me as a land whose administration of justice appears to be rather perplexing.

I too hope that not only Debra will be recognized as innocent, but also that her case may be the starting point for a revision or a correction of the administration of justice in Arizona and probably the prosecution opted for a new trial instead of simply set her free, as she would deserve, exactly because they realize it's not just Milke's personal case which is at stake in that story.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:43 am

jlroberts4 wrote:I agree with Jeff Beverly. I was going to write all that because it is just shocking. I was in Perryville prison with Milke, as they call her. Everyone said and thought she was a child killer. Worst of the worst in prison.The inmates and the guards. So I thought so too. During R&A (Perryville's holding area until classification) they kept new inmates on the same yard as death row but in different pods. We would see her from our room door window when they would let her out for "exercise" in a cage like a dog. (same kind of cage that a woman died in at Perryville a couple years ago from neglect and heat exposure) Everyone would say...there's Milke! She killed all her kids. So in typical prison gossip fashion, the story had mutated into her having more than one kid and killing them all herself. Reading all these latest developments is relieving. Prison is awful as it is if you're just there for a drug crime, like I was, without swirling rumors making this poor woman out to be some kind of monster. In the time I spent at Perryville, on Lumley and then Santa Maria for 5 years, I saw and heard many things. Corrupt officers were abundant. Back stabbing women were the usual rule. You couldn't trust anyone. It was a bad experience, as I'm sure prison is meant to be, but I feel so bad for her. Its tough to be there for five years with relative freedoms on the minimum yard when you are guilty, I can't IMAGINE being there the amount of time she has, going through MUCH worse than I did, being innocent. I saw first hand, several, several instances of misconduct by guards in both county jail and prison in Arizona. Who knows what has happened to her all these years? I know how the inmates treated her and know there are corrupt guards there, so I bet she has been treated poorly in ALL the years she's been there. I would like to say I am shocked by her railroad conviction and subsequent treatment, but living in Arizona all my life, and having been shoved through the court and prison systems here, unfortunately, I am NOT shocked that that detective got away with getting her convicted with a fake confession. Take 15 minutes and read Joe Arapio's Wikipedia page and ask yourself HOW does he continue to get re-elected? If felons were allowed to vote? (another topic I could write a LOT about) He would not be the sheriff. I know it wasn't "Sheriff Joe" in office when Debra was railroaded, but that's even worse! That shows Arizona has been corrupt since before "Joe's" reign. I know it sounds like I am ranting, and I may be a bit and I don't mean to cover all of Arizona and all police and judges; Arizona's justice system with the corrupt blanket. I just know the side I have seen. In prison the inmates say Arizona is a "Cowboy State", meaning the cops (and I am sure not ALL of them) are cowboys. Prideful, reckless and out for blood. Eager to slap a sentence on someone. Lock em UP! That is the attitude and its common knowledge. There are many fishy convictions in Arizona. I got to know many girls in prison. Most of them, including me and contrary to public opnion, admit their guilt. You always hear, "Oh everyone in prison SAYS they are innocent!" That's not true. For Milke to claim innocence all this time, with no contact with other inmates, no one to impress and nothing to prove to anyone on the yard, speaks volumes. I believe she is innocent or in the LEAST fast tracked right into guilty and a death sentence. Who has heard of a veteran detective taking a confession in a child murder case in half an hour with no recording going on? Watch an episode of Dateline or 48 hours, they show 2 detectives in the room. Audio and video recording going on. 9 hours, 20 hours of going over and over the evidence and what has been said. Confessions typed up and signed. Standard OP. But this stellar detective got 3 confessions in an hour? Uh-huh. Also, typically, people held in country jail on a murder charge are fighting their cases for 4 years or so before actual trial! I read Debra was sentenced within a year or something crazy like that. Also given a DUI public defender? Really? I also read this "star" closer detective was called in on his day off to come save the day and while he was alone in the room with Debra taking her "confession" that she hadn't signed a Miranda waiver? To me, just reading these few facts about her case, before I dug deeper, that those things alone were extreme enough to get her a new trial. Inadequate council. Miranda...all of it. Sounds and is ludicrous. In the 5 years I was at Perryville on a drug charge, at one point I had an 18 year old thug roomate. Illiterate. Poor upbringing. Bad family life. She had stolen her moms truck to go out partying with 2 of her female cousins. They were drinking. She flipped the truck, totaled it, killed one of her cousins and severely injured herself and her other cousin. How many crimes is that? Grand theft auto. Underage drinking. Drinking and driving. Manslaughter. And whatever charge it is called when you destroy a vehicle you have stolen and the other charge of injuring her other cousin. Reckless endangerment probably. She got sentenced to 2.5 years. That's it! There I sat sentenced to 10 years alltogether, for possession and paraphernalia running concurrent so I served 5, and she did ALL that and got 2.5? This shocked me every day I looked at her. The courts reasoning for the light sentence was because of her childhood and illiteracy. What is wrong with our justice system? And Milke sits there all these years from a crooked cops false confession? And guess what? That roommate I was just talking about? She ended up doing the rest of her time in the hole. Why you ask? Oh! Well that would be because one of the correction officers was having sex with her best friend and so to get my roommate not to tell, this officer brought my roommate burritos, McDonalds, makeup, and some vodka. Since she was acting strangely on the yard another officer approached her and discovered she had been drinking and searched our room. That is when they pulled the alcohol and McDonalds and everything else she had been given by the officer out of our room. Luckily, I was never in the room. Always at work and school. So I only learned of what was going on after the fact. She did not get any more charges or more years tacked onto her sentence even though possessing prison contraband can get you more time. This is just one example of what I saw in the five years I was there. Again. My point being the Arizona justice system and corrections system is twisted and dirty. I am glad that Milke is getting out or getting a new trial or at least noticed and believed after all this time. After having been slammed through the system myself it is good to hear that she is finally getting the truth out. Once they lock you up there and throw away the key you pretty much have no hope.I congratulate her for maintaining her innocence and I congratulate the courts for recognizing, finally, the corruption and unfairness that goes on. Maybe there is light and hope at the end of the tunnel for Arizona's judicial system.


Did you ever meet Angela Simpson? Was she scary?

What do you think life will be like for Jodi Arias at Perryville? Will the alpha females target her and make her life hell?
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Report on today: http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/23237 ... Id=9233059

I expect there will be more later. But interesting event after proceedings ended. Way past my bedtime.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:12 am

Michael Kiefer's report on yesterday''s hearing: http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/f ... ments.html

Perhaps the most interesting (or should I say strange) bit is at the end:
At the end of Friday’s hearing, Milke’s ex-husband, who changed his first name from Mark to Arizona, tried to give a packet of papers to Mroz, saying he has been harassed by the Arizona Attorney General’s Office, which prosecuted the Milke case through years of appeals. Arizona Milke told Mroz that the Attorney General’s Office is responsible for his own father’s death because of the alleged harassment. And he expressed his own displeasure with the county attorney, though he has steadfastly lobbied for the punishment of his ex-wife for their son’s death.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:52 pm

I have a new ground report article waiting for review. Sneak preview:

The case of Debra Milke has run on for many years. The many misconceptions can be traced to just one man, Jim Styers. The case is unusual, in that Jim Styers lied not just after the murder but before. That caused a tangled web of confusion lasting 23 years. The key to the case is to understand that Jim Styers lied to his accomplice, Roger Scott. Jim Styers was cunning and inventive. Realising that if he murdered Christopher by himself, the police would suspect him, he thought up an alibi scheme, but he needed an accomplice. Jim Styers persuaded Roger Scott to help him.
Jim Styers told Roger Scott at least two lies:
(1) That Debra wanted Christopher, her much loved son, to be killed.
(2) That Debra had been with him previously to murder Christopher, but they hadn’t carried it out.

Now a tragic set of consequences for Debra ensued. After Christopher went missing, and Jim Styers claimed that Roger Scott was his alibi, the police rapidly became suspicious. They put pressure on Scott, who confessed to being present at the murder. Scott then gave a truthful confession. He told the police that Jim Styers had told him that Debra wanted Christopher dead. He also told the police that Jim Styers had told him that he(Jim) had met with Debra earlier to carry out the murder. Roger Scott was telling the truth, but what the police failed to spot was that Jim Styers had lied to Roger Scott.

Now, step forward Armando Saldate,the crooked lead detective. Saldate interrogated Debra, and claimed that she had confessed to him.

The die was cast, and Debra lost not only her son but nearly 24 years of her life.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Jeff_B » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:34 pm

geebee2 wrote:I have a new ground report article waiting for review. Sneak preview:

... The key to the case is to understand that Jim Styers lied to his accomplice, Roger Scott. Jim Styers was cunning and inventive. Realising that if he murdered Christopher by himself, the police would suspect him, he thought up an alibi scheme, but he needed an accomplice. Jim Styers persuaded Roger Scott to help him...


It's possible it happened that way, but I am not persuaded by your theory. If Styers had wanted Christopher dead, why would he have needed an accomplice? He could have killed Christopher by himself and then went to the mall and claimed he disappeared. If he had done that and hid the body well, he would likely have gotten away with it. Why involve a mentally unstable man like Scott as a witness to his guilt? An alibi? I doubt it. If he was as cunning as you claim, he would have seen the risk of Scott spilling the truth.
I think it's much more likely Scott acted on impulse because of his grudge against Debra, and then threatened to kill Styers also. Styers would have been afraid not only of Scott, but also (rightfully) of being blamed.
Jeff_B
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:22 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:22 am

Debra Milke retrial: Judge refuses to oust prosecutors in Milke case

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_ph ... milke-case
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:07 pm

This doesn't surprise me and to fully evaluate its importance in the context of the trial one should be an Arizonian "insider": see from the other side of the world it may seem a small victory for the prosecution, but Arizonian Courts are not like Italian Courts.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:04 pm

It's oral arguments on the Simpson hearing today, an important day for Debra.

I have just been reading the last set of minutes: http://www.courtminutes.maricopa.gov/do ... 884458.pdf

Where is says: "IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the defense shall disclose the specific witnesses it
plans to call at the trial by September 6, 2013, and designate which of the three phases of the
trial the State intends to call each witness."

Shouldn't "State" be "defense"?

Also: "The State represents that counsel for defendant Scott does not object and that counsel for defendant Styers does object. The defense states it will not stipulate to the request." seems quite interesting. Confirms in my mind that Jim Styers is the one who has something to hide.

What exactly does "The defense states it will not stipulate to the request." mean?
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:47 am

geebee2 wrote:What exactly does "The defense states it will not stipulate to the request." mean?


Maybe "the defense states it will answer negatively to the request"?
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:48 am

My interpretation: Roger Scott wants to establish that Jim Styers was the shooter.
Debra doesn't need to prove anything, and this very old evidence could be contaminated, after being handled many times.
( Paul Hueble did an article on this explaining it in great detail )
Should be a link here somewhere: https://twitter.com/debramilke_gb

Paul has been following this case right from the day Debra was arrested.
Please be very supportive to Paul, there have been some disagreements amongst supporters that do not help Debra at all.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:53 am

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/debra-milke-update-bond-hearing-for-woman-accused-in-sons-1989-death

Image

PHOENIX - Lawyers for a woman whose conviction for killing her son more than two decades ago was overturned by an appeals court will ask a judge Friday to release her on bond.

Debra Milke spent more than 22 years on death row before the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals threw out her conviction in March. The court found prosecutors hadn't turned over evidence of misconduct by a police detective.

The Maricopa County Attorney's Office is again pursuing the death penalty. Milke has maintained her innocence and denied she admitted to the crime.

Authorities say Milke dressed her son in his favorite outfit and told him he was going to see Santa Claus at a mall in December 1989. Two men took him to the desert and shot him.
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:37 am

User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:18 am

What is interesting is that the prosecution are now arguing that "Scott and Styers had no reason to kill Christopher".

But it's not true. Jim Styers had a powerful motive. He wanted Debra, and Christopher was the obstacle.

He recruited Roger Scott to give him an alibi.

It's unfortunate that Frankie still has a wrong theory of the crime : he still thinks Scott shot Christopher, when it was Jim Styers.

He still doesn't understand the motive, and neither apparently do the prosecution. Sigh!

http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/What+happened

Arizona Milke has developed typical symptoms of being on the wrong side of the truth, unfortunately.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:29 pm

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/a ... aring.html

More jaw-dropping details of Friday's hearing.

He also said of his ex-wife, “I really doubt she would survive to get to trial” if she were to be released.

“Mr. Milke, I hope you are not threatening her,” Mroz said.

He said that he was concerned that she would lapse into alcoholism.

“So, you don’t want her released for her own safety,” Mroz summarized.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:33 am

In Italy there is a saying about people like Arizona Milke: one says about them that one cannot know "se ci fanno o se ci sono", that is if they playact as mentally challenged or if they really are such.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:59 am

The extraordinary performance actually had me wondering whether there could be some other motive here.
Is it conceivable he played some part - say making some suggestion to Jim Styers, after a bitter custody battle?
Or did he say something to detective Saldate?
Totally speculative, and I don't believe it, but he does almost seem desperate to see Debra re-convicted.
Is he afraid of something? Just my brain whirring away, considering possibilities.

Men who are responsible for homicides due to sexual jealousy normally lash out against their wives and sometimes their children too, do so after the woman tries to end the relationship (Wilson and Daly 1993). A common quote from jealous homicide killers that has been said is, “If I can’t have her nobody can.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_jea ... festations

I still think he simply thinks Debra guilty, the killer of his son, I'm just wondering if there is some other possibility.
I mean if has has stalked Frankie etc, he must know all about Saldate's long list of misconduct.
He must appreciate that Debra was convicted solely on Saldate's word.
Could he have been so jealous of Debra having custody of Christopher, that he suggested something to Jim Styers?
"If I cannot have him, she is not getting him", that sort of thing. Insanity.
I understand he has been going round for many years telling everyone how guilty Debra is, is that correct? Why?
"Methinks he doth protest too much"
..?
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:15 pm

The crumbling state case...

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Judge-mull ... 49401.html

Saldate wants a lawyer, he is afraid. No ruling on bond.
They have more evidence of Saldate's misconduct, etc.

Well worth watching video.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bill Williams » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:10 pm

geebee2 wrote:The crumbling state case...

http://www.azfamily.com/news/Judge-mull ... 49401.html

Saldate wants a lawyer, he is afraid. No ruling on bond.
They have more evidence of Saldate's misconduct, etc.

Well worth watching video.

If Saldate refuses to testify at Milke's new trial, what is there to try her for?
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
    Martha Gellhorn
Bill Williams
 
Posts: 8084
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:00 pm

Bill

According to the prosecutor, Debra must be guilty, because the two men who murdered Christopher didn't have a motive.

I beg to differ: http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Motive

And also, Debra definitely did not have a motive, or any signs of mental issues:
http://groundreport.com/debra-milke-closing-argument/

I think it was Saldate who "prejudged" not Debra.

It's hard to say who is madder : the prosecutor or Arizona Milke.

"Arizona Milke, the father of the slain boy and Debra Milke's ex-husband, urged Mroz to deny bond. He said she was likely to flee the country or start drinking again and die. Milke said he and his ex-wife are both alcoholics."

Actually, what he said was a lot madder than that: http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Bail+ ... +30+August

Just supposing you haven't had a drink for 23 years, and are on trial for capital murder, released on bail, would you start drinking enough to kill yourself!

And Saldate would be mad to testify. I think.

I think Arizona Milke, Jim Styers, Roger Scott and Armando Saldate might be well advised to all plead insanity, or the 5th, as appropriate.
As for the prosecutors .. well, they might do well to beat a retreat.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bill Williams » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:02 pm

geebee2 wrote:Bill

....................................

And Saldate would be mad to testify. I think.

I think Arizona Milke, Jim Styers, Roger Scott and Armando Saldate might be well advised to all plead insanity, or the 5th, as appropriate.
As for the prosecutors .. well, they might do well to beat a retreat.

What is Saldate going to say, esp. after the federal court ordered a retrial based on his record? He may as well raise the white flag and call it a day.

I sincerely hope that Debra Milke is in the street soon. The fresh air is intoxicating.
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
    Martha Gellhorn
Bill Williams
 
Posts: 8084
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 pm

Fantastic news!!!!!

Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz ruled this morning that Milke, 49, may be released on a secured bond of $250,000, pending her retrial.

There is no word yet on when she will be released. But at a court hearing Aug. 30, Milke’s attorneys, Mike Kimerer and Lori Voepel, told the court that Milke’s supporters would be able to put up bond money, and one had provided a house for her to live in as the legal procedures play out.

Milke has a strong following of people who believe she is innocent, especially in Europe, where she has family.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/a ... trial.html
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Flipp » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:29 pm

geebee2 wrote:Fantastic news!!!!!

Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz ruled this morning that Milke, 49, may be released on a secured bond of $250,000, pending her retrial.

There is no word yet on when she will be released. But at a court hearing Aug. 30, Milke’s attorneys, Mike Kimerer and Lori Voepel, told the court that Milke’s supporters would be able to put up bond money, and one had provided a house for her to live in as the legal procedures play out.

Milke has a strong following of people who believe she is innocent, especially in Europe, where she has family.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/a ... trial.html


Great news indeed!

Judge ruling here:
http://media2.abc15.com/html/pdf/Milke%20bond%20set.pdf
Flipp
 
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:14 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Hans » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:32 pm

geebee2 wrote:Fantastic news!!!!!

Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz ruled this morning that Milke, 49, may be released on a secured bond of $250,000, pending her retrial.

There is no word yet on when she will be released. But at a court hearing Aug. 30, Milke’s attorneys, Mike Kimerer and Lori Voepel, told the court that Milke’s supporters would be able to put up bond money, and one had provided a house for her to live in as the legal procedures play out.

Milke has a strong following of people who believe she is innocent, especially in Europe, where she has family.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/a ... trial.html

Finally some good news... :)
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 pm

But in March, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals threw out her conviction and death sentence, because the prosecution had failed to turn over evidence about the Phoenix police detective who claimed that Milke confessed.

Milke denied confessing; the detective had not recorded the confession and there were no witnesses to confirm it took place.

Prosecutor Vince Imbordino asked the court to ignore the 9th Circuit decision. Mroz said she would not. Mroz noted that the withheld evidence “casts serious doubt on the validity of the defendant’s alleged confession.”

“The existing information does not make it ‘plain and clear’ ... that the defendant committed the crimes,” Mroz wrote. “The court finds that the proof is not evident or presumption great that the defendant committed the crimes charged in the indictment.”


Wow. The judge fired a shot across the bow of the prosecution's continued claim of guilt with these statements.
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Norm51 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:44 pm

This is fabulous news for Debra and everyone on her team. So happy!
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:01 pm

I hope to see her very soon out of prison, for the first time since December 1989, when the Berlin Wall had just collapsed.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bill Williams » Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:09 pm

roteoctober wrote:I hope to see her very soon out of prison, for the first time since December 1989, when the Berlin Wall had just collapsed.

If and when Debra clears the prison doors, I hope she takes a deep breath, looks around and smells a few roses.

“All the art of living lies in a fine mingling of letting go and holding on.” Henry Ellis
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
    Martha Gellhorn
Bill Williams
 
Posts: 8084
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Sarah » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:07 pm

geebee2 wrote:Fantastic news!!!!!

Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Rosa Mroz ruled this morning that Milke, 49, may be released on a secured bond of $250,000, pending her retrial.

There is no word yet on when she will be released. But at a court hearing Aug. 30, Milke’s attorneys, Mike Kimerer and Lori Voepel, told the court that Milke’s supporters would be able to put up bond money, and one had provided a house for her to live in as the legal procedures play out.

Milke has a strong following of people who believe she is innocent, especially in Europe, where she has family.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/a ... trial.html


I'm so happy for her! May she never see another day in jail once bond is made!
User avatar
Sarah
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby DaveET » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:08 pm

I don't think I have posted here on Debra's case before but have followed it since it first appeared. I remain amazed that it has taken this long since the 9th Circuit's stunning condemnation of the prosecution to get to the point that Debra finally gets released. Hope it happens any day now but I bet they keep resisting till the last minute!
"In God We Trust. All Others Show Data"
Andrew von Eschenbach. Former chief of FDA
DaveET
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:40 am

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:16 pm

great news :clap:
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:23 am

Guess who is on the wrong side of the truth here : https://twitter.com/search?q=%23DebraMilke&src=hash

( apart from Arizona Milke, Debra's ex-husband - who seems to be coming round )

We have a new concept "almost certainly guilty". ( https://twitter.com/PerugiaMurderFi/sta ... 8851877888 )

Also

For Arizona Milke, there's no doubt in his mind his ex-wife is guilty. But he also thinks she'll be acquitted at the next trial. Prosecutors are again seeking the death penalty.

"Christopher came out of her -- I don't want to see her killed."


http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/23355 ... hristopher
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom


Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:54 am

geebee2 wrote:http://www.therobingroom.com/arizona/Judge.aspx?ID=6084


Three interesting quotes at the bottom of the page. The oldest was the most harsh but they got better as she has sat on bench.
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:20 am

Fantastic, PMF, I don't know which one tweeted those bullocks, is always on the wrong side.

I guess it does not come by chance but by a specific state of mind.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:03 am

Grayhawker wrote:
geebee2 wrote:http://www.therobingroom.com/arizona/Judge.aspx?ID=6084


Three interesting quotes at the bottom of the page. The oldest was the most harsh but they got better as she has sat on bench.


You do realise the last was my comment :)
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:36 pm

geebee2 wrote:
Grayhawker wrote:
geebee2 wrote:http://www.therobingroom.com/arizona/Judge.aspx?ID=6084


Three interesting quotes at the bottom of the page. The oldest was the most harsh but they got better as she has sat on bench.


You do realise the last was my comment :)

Yep! But it was the change in the one from 2009 to the one from 2010 that got my attention. Yours confirmed the 2010 review to give me a sense that she would be fair and not play favorites to the prosecution.
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:43 pm

The FB page reports that Debra is out of jail, and dodged the press.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Free-Deb ... 7767923380
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:46 pm

The comments at Huffington post are of course totally mindless and stupid:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/0 ... 76050.html

What can one do in the face of such drivel. They obviously didn't even read the article.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:48 pm

The important thing is that she is out of prison.

The authors of stupid comments on Huffington Post show the usual ignorance on the case.

PMF tweeters are probably in contact with Maricopa County Attorney ;-)
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:15 pm

User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Hans » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:54 am

He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:16 am

Happy to see her free, but she clearly needs to recover: the strain of all these years is manifest on her face.
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2433
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Norm51 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:06 am

It's not over for her yet - and nor will it ever be. She lost her only child. There will always be those who believe whatever they read in the press and the press will always put the so called 'other side' of the story simply to bolster sales. (example Amanda Knox) She seems very strong and will pick up the pieces better than anyone I can think of. She has learned to not only be/stay positive but to take the rest of us to that place with her. That is one of the things that is truly amazing about her. A few good nights of sleep alone will help her immensely. We're all here for her if she needs us. Some of you have been involved for years and years. Good on you! Onwards - onwards. Go Debra!!!
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:27 pm

I hardly know what to say. For the moment, the legal process still has to complete.
Will the retrial actually take place? If the judge acts properly, and after the bail hearing surely she will, there is no evidence.
I hope when the DNA tests ordered come back negative that will be a fig leaf for the state to finally drop the charges.
Currently I guess Debra will need a lot of help to recover psychologically, and also when she is legally completely free.
Unfortunately nothing can give her back her son, or the years of her life that she has lost.
I hope the press tell the full story. I think that outside Arizona that will be the case.
Almost all of those who have believed the lies for so many years will I think see the truth once majority opinion comes round.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:19 pm

An old video of Paul Hueble's from 2011 that I didn't view before.

Watch on youtube.com
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bill Williams » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:31 pm

geebee2 wrote:I hardly know what to say. For the moment, the legal process still has to complete.
Will the retrial actually take place? If the judge acts properly, and after the bail hearing surely she will, there is no evidence.
I hope when the DNA tests ordered come back negative that will be a fig leaf for the state to finally drop the charges.
Currently I guess Debra will need a lot of help to recover psychologically, and also when she is legally completely free.
Unfortunately nothing can give her back her son, or the years of her life that she has lost.
I hope the press tell the full story. I think that outside Arizona that will be the case.
Almost all of those who have believed the lies for so many years will I think see the truth once majority opinion comes round.

There is major question as to whether or not Saldate will even testify. If compelled to testify, then he's likely to take the 5th and be done with it.

What case is there against Milke if that happens?
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
    Martha Gellhorn
Bill Williams
 
Posts: 8084
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Norm51 » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:14 pm

The whole thing reminds me of the fairy tale of the Emperor where everyone can see he has no clothes on. Eventually a child screams out the simple truth. 24 years in the making but eventually the simple truth will be impossible to ignore.
Norm51
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Jeff_B » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:53 pm

Bill Williams wrote:...If and when Debra clears the prison doors, I hope she takes a deep breath, looks around and smells a few roses.

She did. :D
350
Jeff_B
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 10:22 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:26 am

A 12 News Exclusive: Debra Milke reunited with her mother after 23 years on death row

http://www.azcentral.com/video/2660972677001

I have updated some of my pages with images/videos:

http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Support+sites
http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Defense+Lawyers
http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Reunion
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:59 am

Armando Saldate says he will not testify - will take 5th Amendment

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2013/09/br ... l?spref=fb
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Sarah » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Debra Milke Press Conference. Sep 13, 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRl8ErGBKsc&feature=youtu.be&a

Bill Montgomery can't guarantee a retrial without Detective Armando Saldate's testimony. He hints there are other ways to try case.


"A federal appeals court tossed out the conviction because they believe the star witness, Detective Armando Saldate, was a bad cop who lied on the witness stand."

"Saldate did not tape record the confession, there were no witnesses, he destroyed his notes, and the appeals court said Saldate has a long record of lying under oath in court."

"Just Thursday Armando Saldate said through his lawyer he will take the fifth and not testify in any retrial of Debra Milke."

"Montgomery took shots at a court of appeals and Milke's defense attorneys on Friday, claiming they have been intimidating his key witness."

"Montgomery is sticking up for Saldate. He says the eight cases used to discredit Saldate were mischaracterized. Montgomery said Saldate never lied and his testimony against Milke is indeed credible."


http://www.kpho.com/story/23420855/witnesss-refusal-to-testify-jeopardizes-milke-retrial
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/23429319/2013/09/13/county-attorney-wants-detective-to-testify-in-retrial-of-debra-milke
User avatar
Sarah
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bill Williams » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:36 pm

Sarah wrote:Debra Milke Press Conference. Sep 13, 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRl8ErGBKsc&feature=youtu.be&a

Bill Montgomery can't guarantee a retrial without Detective Armando Saldate's testimony. He hints there are other ways to try case.


"A federal appeals court tossed out the conviction because they believe the star witness, Detective Armando Saldate, was a bad cop who lied on the witness stand."

"Saldate did not tape record the confession, there were no witnesses, he destroyed his notes, and the appeals court said Saldate has a long record of lying under oath in court."

"Just Thursday Armando Saldate said through his lawyer he will take the fifth and not testify in any retrial of Debra Milke."

"Montgomery took shots at a court of appeals and Milke's defense attorneys on Friday, claiming they have been intimidating his key witness."

"Montgomery is sticking up for Saldate. He says the eight cases used to discredit Saldate were mischaracterized. Montgomery said Saldate never lied and his testimony against Milke is indeed credible."


http://www.kpho.com/story/23420855/witnesss-refusal-to-testify-jeopardizes-milke-retrial
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/23429319/2013/09/13/county-attorney-wants-detective-to-testify-in-retrial-of-debra-milke

You bet your sweet hindquarters that they've been intimidating his star witness.

They've been intimidating him with the flippin' truth! When the truth becomes intimidating, then it's time for the.......

Image
    “The only way I can pay back for what fate and society have handed me is to try, in minor totally useless ways, to make an angry sound against injustice.”
    Martha Gellhorn
Bill Williams
 
Posts: 8084
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Grayhawker » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:35 am

"Montgomery is sticking up for Saldate. He says the eight cases used to discredit Saldate were mischaracterized. Montgomery said Saldate never lied and his testimony against Milke is indeed credible."


Yet, how many of those cases were tossed due to Saldate's testimony that Montgomery defended his testimony?
Paolo Micheli stated with regard to Amanda and Raffaele: "We do not need evidence, common sense and logic tell us that they dated each other to commit this crime."
User avatar
Grayhawker
 
Posts: 2387
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:13 pm
Location: Kansas City

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:37 am

Read also the final statements of Noel Levy and you know how and by whom the case was constructed.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4868
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:19 am

See my comments at http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/23429 ... ebra-milke

Letting Montgomery and Horne have everything I have got on them...
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:22 am

e.g.

What a pig Montgomery is, hiding the serial sex abuser Saldate behind the statute of limitations.

The allegations are true Montgomery, I hope your electors know you are siding with a convicted pervert who abuses women.

Sex abusers don't change their spots, they get worse.

A a superior court judge has agreed with an administrative law judge that Montgomery's office messed up the campaign finance case against Attorney General Tom Horne and his outreach director Kathleen Winn.

That's Tom Horne: In 1970, his investment firm T.C. Horne & Co. went belly-up, resulting in a lifetime trading ban with the Securities and Exchange Commission. A fact he failed to disclose in his law firm's annual reports to the Arizona Corporation Commission.

Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne, who hired his longtime political crony Carmen Chenal as an assistant attorney general in charge of foreign extraditions at a salary of $108,000 a year.
..
After the accident at Chenal’s apartment complex, the Phoenix report states, Horne “stopped for an estimated 10 to 20 seconds.”

“Neither Tom nor Carmen got out or opened the windows to look out to see the damage,” the report said. “Tom pulled away and parked the vehicle in another area of the parking garage, and the two of them walked through the resident gate and went into Carmen’s apartment.”

Authorities concluded that Horne, a married man, did not leave a note so that he could hide a relationship with Chenal.

etc,etc.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:11 pm

Very good report from Paul Hueble on press conference and Saldate.

European Press were excluded from press conference!

I don't think Montgomery is fooling anyone any more... he is disrespecting the constitution, the rule of law, superior courts.

Out with the old, in with the new... when is the next election?

I didn't know Saldate was Catholic. I wonder what his priest knows?

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2013/09/ma ... -bill.html

http://debra-milke.wikispaces.com/Armando+Saldate
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:34 am

Great breaking news story about how Debra was set free:

"They have never spoken out about the Debra Milke case until today. Kirk Fowler spent 30 years as a Border Patrol and DEA agent, then worked as an investigator for Debra Milke's defense at her trial...

Rosenquist hired about a dozen ASU law students and they all went to work.

The amount of work this team did is absolutely staggering. In the Maricopa County Superior Court clerk's office, there are boxes of records from criminal cases. That's what this team was going through. Every one of those boxes contains 6,000 to 7,000 pages of documents."

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/23447 ... misconduct

One of the volunteer researchers was apparently Andrew: https://twitter.com/ads60nyc/status/376363203472523264
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:14 am

geebee2 wrote:Great breaking news story about how Debra was set free:

"They have never spoken out about the Debra Milke case until today. Kirk Fowler spent 30 years as a Border Patrol and DEA agent, then worked as an investigator for Debra Milke's defense at her trial...

Rosenquist hired about a dozen ASU law students and they all went to work.

The amount of work this team did is absolutely staggering. In the Maricopa County Superior Court clerk's office, there are boxes of records from criminal cases. That's what this team was going through. Every one of those boxes contains 6,000 to 7,000 pages of documents."

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/23447 ... misconduct

One of the volunteer researchers was apparently Andrew: https://twitter.com/ads60nyc/status/376363203472523264


That's great news. There's no need to use the article to yet again promote your Arias wiki in the comments though. One might think you're disingenuous and only using these other cases to self promote.
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby Bruce Fischer » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:34 pm

I would like to do a radio show on the Debra Milke case on Tuesday September 24. Would anyone here be interested in participating on the show? Frankie is currently too busy to do the show but I know there are several people here that have spent a great deal of time researching the case, so I think we can put together a good informative show. If you are interested, please met me know. Thanks.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4470
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Debra Milke Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:12 pm

Bruce Fischer wrote:I would like to do a radio show on the Debra Milke case on Tuesday September 24. Would anyone here be interested in participating on the show? Frankie is currently too busy to do the show but I know there are several people here that have spent a great deal of time researching the case, so I think we can put together a good informative show. If you are interested, please met me know. Thanks.


I know exactly who'll be contacting you :devil:
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

PreviousNext

Return to Debra Milke Case

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron