Death Penalty Discussion

Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Bruce Fischer » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:48 pm

Here are some good death penalty resources

The Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC) (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org) is a non-profit organization serving the media and the public with analysis and information on issues concerning capital punishment. The Center was founded in 1990 and prepares in-depth reports, issues press releases, conducts briefings for journalists, and serves as a resource to those working on this issue. We highly recommend DPIC to anyone looking for credible information regarding the death penalty.

Death Penalty Fact Sheet
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf

Innocence Project: The Death Penalty
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Death_Penalty.php

Northwestern University International Death Penalty Website
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/04/international-death-penalty-website.html

Possible Wrongful Executions
http://www.injustice-anywhere.org/DeathPenalty2.html

PDF: Reasonable Doubts: Is the U.S. Executing Innocent People?
http://www.injustice-anywhere.org/reasonabledoubt.pdf

The Troy Davis Case highlights the need for a moratorium on capital punishment
http://www.injustice-anywhere.org/TroyDavis.html


We are very interested in hearing your views on the death penalty. All opinions are welcome.
"This could happen to any one of you. If you don't believe it could happen, you are either misinformed or in a state of deep denial" -- Debra Milke
User avatar
Bruce Fischer
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4459
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 4:26 pm
Location: USA

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:08 am

Anthony Graves talks about death row.

[youtube]rMR8kQBlXtU[/youtube]
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Hans » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:24 pm

Watch on youtube.com


Watch on youtube.com


Watch on youtube.com


Watch on youtube.com


Watch on youtube.com


Btw. I don't think that there's any "humane" way to kill a human being... :((:
He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:21 am

My link above has gone dead and I can't edit it so I'm just reposting this.

Anthony Graves talks about death row.

Watch on youtube.com
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Jstanz » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:32 am

John Douglas' and Mark Olshaker's book Law and Disorder is invoking in me some in-depth death penalty soul-searching. Great book!
All my grammar and spelling mistakes are the result of auto-correct. If auto-correct is not used here, I still blame it.
Jstanz
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Clive Wismayer » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:50 am

Well, Jodi Arias is highlighting, for me, another problem with the DP - it raises the stakes too much, prolonging the trial and the inevitable appeals, and putting undue pressure on the participants. It's worse when coupled, as in her case, with the concept of premeditated murder which only exists as a separate category in order to justify a stiffer sentence than 'normal' murder would.

I agree with all the other anti-DP stuff except I don't see any fundamental immorality. I am sure I could come with scenarios in which society would be better served by executing certain criminals but they don't apply to the modern US. I am thinking about the disintegration of law and order in parts of Mexico where drug gangs have taken over, openly target and kill legitimate politicians and operate as a substitute regime. That sort of thing.
Clive Wismayer
 

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:07 am

I'm firmly against the death penalty. I can see no justification either practical or ethical for it in a civilised society.

I guess you could devise artificial situations where it might be justified : for example if there were insufficient secure prisons, and the risk of escape is too great or the risk to prison staff is too great.

But due to the long appeal process, any possible gain is minimal.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby LarryK » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:31 am

John Douglas made a good point however, that he only felt secure that Ted Bundy would never hurt anyone again when he was dead. At some point public safety becomes a consideration. Certainly some states overuse the death penalty; I wish California would drop certain categories of "special circumstances" for which the death penalty may apply, without completely abolishing it.
The brain is not configured in a way that makes obedience through logical, language-based propositions possible during distress and suffering. -- James Wilder, "Neurotheology and the Life Model"
LarryK
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:57 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Jstanz » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:09 am

The case of Suzanne Collins in Douglas' book is a perfect example of why I agree with the death penalty. The only reason I can no longer advocate it is because of how often the prosecution gets it wrong. Sedley Ally is one guilty that I WOULD NOT have wanted to see go free.
All my grammar and spelling mistakes are the result of auto-correct. If auto-correct is not used here, I still blame it.
Jstanz
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby wald1900 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:46 am

Jstanz wrote:The case of Suzanne Collins in Douglas' book is a perfect example of why I agree with the death penalty. The only reason I can no longer advocate it is because of how often the prosecution gets it wrong. Sedley Ally is one guilty that I WOULD NOT have wanted to see go free.



This has become essentially my argument as well. While I understand and respect that there are those who feel profound moral scruples about society’s right to take another human life, I do not share them. There are, in my view, some individuals whose acts are so egregiously evil that mankind as a whole is better off with them put down; not as a matter of vengeance but as a matter of simple civic responsibility. Notwithstanding this view, I oppose the death penalty for the simple reason that while I’m convinced that these malignant souls certainly exist, I am not convinced that societies do a particularly good job of identifying them. To take another life, justified in theory though it may well be, requires something more than “beyond a reasonable doubt”. It requires certainty.


The problem is as much practical as it is moral. Let’s assume for a second that there are circumstances under which we can say with “certainty” that an individual stepped so far over the line that they deserve death. If, however, we require “certainty” to put a person to death, we then need two separate verdicts – “Certain” and “Pretty dang sure”. We would need to try these cases to a standard of “certainty” and a jury would have to agree. Given everything I now know about the deficiencies of our criminal justice system and the means by which police and prosecutors (either knowingly or unknowingly) can manipulate a perception of guilt, I can’t see myself ever signing off on a “Certain” verdict. And what then do we say to those convicted of the same types of horrible crimes who we do not put to death? We wind up having to say “Look, we’re not certain you committed this horrible crime. If we were, we’d be strapping you onto a gurney. We are, however, pretty dang sure. That’s why you’re only getting life in prison.” This prospect of two potential verdicts is, to me, even more societally amoral than the death penalty.
wald1900
 
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:19 am

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Jstanz » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:55 am

wald1900 wrote:
Jstanz wrote:The case of Suzanne Collins in Douglas' book is a perfect example of why I agree with the death penalty. The only reason I can no longer advocate it is because of how often the prosecution gets it wrong. Sedley Ally is one guilty that I WOULD NOT have wanted to see go free.



This has become essentially my argument as well. While I understand and respect that there are those who feel profound moral scruples about society’s right to take another human life, I do not share them. There are, in my view, some individuals whose acts are so egregiously evil that mankind as a whole is better off with them put down; not as a matter of vengeance but as a matter of simple civic responsibility. Notwithstanding this view, I oppose the death penalty for the simple reason that while I’m convinced that these malignant souls certainly exist, I am not convinced that societies do a particularly good job of identifying them. To take another life, justified in theory though it may well be, requires something more than “beyond a reasonable doubt”. It requires certainty.


The problem is as much practical as it is moral. Let’s assume for a second that there are circumstances under which we can say with “certainty” that an individual stepped so far over the line that they deserve death. If, however, we require “certainty” to put a person to death, we then need two separate verdicts – “Certain” and “Pretty dang sure”. We would need to try these cases to a standard of “certainty” and a jury would have to agree. Given everything I now know about the deficiencies of our criminal justice system and the means by which police and prosecutors (either knowingly or unknowingly) can manipulate a perception of guilt, I can’t see myself ever signing off on a “Certain” verdict. And what then do we say to those convicted of the same types of horrible crimes who we do not put to death? We wind up having to say “Look, we’re not certain you committed this horrible crime. If we were, we’d be strapping you onto a gurney. We are, however, pretty dang sure. That’s why you’re only getting life in prison.” This prospect of two potential verdicts is, to me, even more societally amoral than the death penalty.


Well said! I agree 100%.
All my grammar and spelling mistakes are the result of auto-correct. If auto-correct is not used here, I still blame it.
Jstanz
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:13 am

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:24 am

A link I came across today, not new., from 2011

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/09/134394946 ... th-penalty

My main thought is that DP qualified juries are much more likely to convict innocent people than non DP-qualified juries.

That means a lot more innocent people spending time on death row than otherwise.

I think the money would be much better spent on keeping genuinely dangerous prisoners secure... and many of these should be in psychiatric care rather than prison.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:08 pm

Another article, http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/r ... ty-mistake

Ray Krone was sentenced to death for a crime he did not commit. After serving more than 10 consecutive years in Arizona prisons, including 32 months on death row, he was successfully exonerated in 2002. His innocence was finally established after DNA tests proved another man had committed the murder of a female bartender..
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:54 pm

Well here is my quick analysis, I have put them in groups.

Drugs - multiple events
Velma Barfield - developed drug addiction via pain-killers, subsequently killed six partners. Apparently reformed in prison, politics involved in clemency decision.
Wanda Jean Allen - low IQ, hit by truck as child - double murder of female partners - domestic violence, she being the abusive partner
Kimberly McCarthy - crack cocaine addict - multiple murders of elderly under care for financial gain ( presumably to buy drugs )

Serial Domestic violence murder, no drugs
Judy Buenoano - a genuine psychopath - murdered several husbands with arsenic, motive apparently financial
Betty Lou Beets - long history of domestic violence, attempted murder of previous husbands, killed final husband.

Intelligent radical
Lynda Lyon Block - intelligent extreme radical - killed a cop - dubious self-defense claim

Single event - not "worst of the worst" IMO, so DP probably not justified if that is a criteria
Karla Faye Tucker - joint felony murder under influence of drugs, did not strike initial blows. Model prisoner, international clemency appeals ignored.
Marilyn Kay Plantz - drug addict, killed husband for money in conspiracy with boyfriend
Teresa Lewis - low IQ - single incident (husband+son), did not carry out murders herself, financial motive
Lois Nadean Smith - single murder of her son’s ex-girlfriend, some doubt as to whether son was the more guilty party

Possibly innocent ( by reason of unusual defense )
Christina Marie Riggs - severe depression - killed own children then survived own suicide attempt - unjust IMO - mental illness, state-assisted suicide
Aileen Wuornos - prostitute - multiple killings - possibly in self-defense ( but ... well, it was multiple times... )

Possibly innocent ( by reason didn't actually kill anyone )
Frances Newton - allegedly murdered her own family - some doubts about facts. In fact I would say considerable doubt, and an insufficient motive.

I think there is just one genuine psychopath here - Judy Buenoano.
The others can be attributed to "heat of the moment" / drugs / depression etc.
I don't think any of them would be a significant danger to prison staff.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Tim33 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:00 pm

I simply take the "better safe than sorry" approach to the death pentalty. If it could be utilized %100 without fault and no innocent person could possibly come under it's wrath, then I would be for it personally. I don't think of it as "society's revenge". The person did it to themselves. They know the consequences for their actions. Even though it rarely does, if the family gained one iota of reconciliation from seeing their loved one's murderer being put to death, then I say mission accomplished. To me that would outway the potential rehabilitation of the criminal or the grief caused to his/her family from their execution. I know that seems harsh, but I don't see it as society regressing by utilizing the death pentalty (in the hypothetical situation outlined above). I say what does it tell of a society that would somewhat condone such behavior by giving them the same punishment as nonviolent offenders such as extreme drug dealers, thieves etc. The scenario of it's perfect use is utterly impossible, so I remain against it. However if the movie Minority Report ever comes to fruition then I might adjust my stance.
"It’s not impossible! I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home" - Luke Skywalker
Tim33
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 9:32 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:12 pm

My position is clear : Totaly against death penalty under whatever circumstances. Death penalty does not solve any problem, does not provide any more security, ... . I support the Europeen Convention of Human Rights that forbids the death penalty.
pmop57
 
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 pm

One thing the JA trial also brought up (whatever your position on the facts) is the mental anguish to the jury - it's not right to put such decisions on untrained lay people.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the jury suffer some kind of PTSD - even with the eventual hung jury - and imagine what the jurors in Debbie Milke's trial will feel now.

Considering 80% of DP sentences are over-turned, and in the mean time those prisoners are subject to solitary confinement for years on end : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22878268

Another aspect:
Fox news wrote:.. attorneys have asked a judge to vacate the jury's decision in her murder trial that the 2008 killing of her boyfriend was "especially cruel," a finding that allowed the panel to consider the death penalty.
Defense attorneys argue in their motion that the definition of "especially cruel" is too vague for jurors with no legal experience to determine what makes one killing more cruel or heinous than another.
The filing also appears to challenge a landmark 2002 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that found a defendant has the right to have a jury, rather than a judge, decide on the existence of an aggravating factor that makes the defendant eligible for capital punishment.
The high court determined that allowing judges to make such findings violated a defendant's constitutional right to a trial by jury.
"Given the apparent difficulties that judges faced (prior to the ruling) in applying the statute in a uniform, consistent manner, juries are understandably even less equipped to do so," defense attorney Kirk Nurmi wrote in the motion filed late last week.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/26/jo ... igibility/

This kind of flip-flop behaviour is typical when a law is fundamentally irrational, IMO.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Hans » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:34 pm

He [Raffaele] is collateral damage in the unreasonable, irresponsible, and unrelenting scapegoating of the prosecution’s grotesque caricature that is “Foxy Knoxy”
~ Amanda Knox
Hans
 
Posts: 4544
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby ljrobins » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:44 pm

I think the death penalty is a barbaric practice, and should be correctly defined as premeditated murder -- not capital punishment. I've grown more and more interested in Norway's approach, and I'm fascinated with their low recidivism rate. I know there are likely some flaws in that system, but rehabilitation rather than "punishment" seems a more progressive answer. Tim, one question, about what you wrote:

I say what does it tell of a society that would somewhat condone such behavior by giving them the same punishment as nonviolent offenders such as extreme drug dealers, thieves etc.


Might you (or others) consider that the "punishment" for non-violent offenders is sometimes too extreme, which can make such a comparison to violent offenders in that context flawed? Also, in terms of the US, I don't see DP as being consistently applied. And yes, I know each state is different, but even within a state, who gets DP or who doesn't seems inconsistently applied. And then there is that huge risk of murdering someone who was innocent all along. Not sure the risk of one innocent death is worth it. I also wonder why do we not encourage forgiveness as the road to healing rather than advocating for another person's death as a way to seeking comfort? I must admit I do find that odd. AND, in particular, most people who I see screaming for death seem angry not sitting in peace. That does make me think.

My comments are not a criticism, just raising the question about how we are "taught" to view people who commit (or are convicted) of crimes. Again, I think Norway's approach, or rather point of view, is revealing in contrast to how North American's view perpetrators as scum versus troubled people who require support, discipline, counselling and love (I know that seems trite but for many it's key) to become better human beings. I'm looking at this in the big picture rather than one by one -- as a Ted Bundy can't ever be reformed, but needn't of been killed either. Can we still not learn something from those people? Maybe not, but maybe so. Do we even try? Doesn't mean they should be set free, of course. Just thinking out loud, here, I guess. Will stop now!
"I am not the only one. There are many other wrongfully convicted people and they need your support. They need a voice." - Ryan Ferguson
ljrobins
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:47 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:51 am

My further thoughts :

Given that 80% of Arizona death sentences fail on appeal, petition for prisoners to be treated as lifers until appeals are exhausted.
Prisoners should not be kept in solitary confinement, unless justified by violent conduct while in custody.

That would have meant Debra Milke spending her 20+ years in relatively humane conditions, not being mentally tortured.

Or would it? Hmm.. once appeals are exhausted, prisoners are executed. Oops.. there is no way to make sense of all this.

http://tucsoncitizen.com/cell-out-arizo ... -responds/
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:02 am

I'll try again : no prisoner should be kept in solitary confinement unless there is evidence while in custody that they are a serious danger to prison staff or other prisoners.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby MichaelB » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:13 am

80% of death penalty sentences are not overturned in Arizona or in any other state.
The stupid things Ergon says - THE BEST OF NASEER AHMAD: "Curatolo's testimony is one of the bedrock foundations of my beliefs in this case."
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:07 pm
Location: Perryville Prison

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:26 am

MichaelB wrote:80% of death penalty sentences are not overturned in Arizona or in any other state.


The exact figure probably depends on how it is calculated, I did read it is 80% in Arizona, don't have the reference to hand.

Here is a report on California, 87.5% in 2002:

"Sixteen years after California voters emphatically endorsed the death penalty by overhauling the state's liberal Supreme Court, state and federal courts continue to reverse California death penalty cases at a stunning rate: Seven death sentences are set aside for every one carried out."
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/534

Are you really going to argue this on whether the correct statistic is 60% , 70%, 80% or 90%?
The fact is the system for determining the death penalty is hopelessly inaccurate.
We only know how bad in retrospect, which is no argument for carrying on.
In Arizona they are torturing people with solitary confinement when this is later found to be wrong in about 60% - 90% of cases.
And how it can be right to torture people without justification (i.e. for punishment/retributive purposes) in any circumstance I really don't understand.

I would argue that NONE of the women executed since 1976 http://jodi-arias.wikispaces.com/Women+ ... +post-1976 were in any sense "worst-of-the worst", in the sense of being a Ted Bundy - truly dangerous individuals even in captivity. Or these I think at least four should have been found innocent, and any public benefit from these executions is highly doubtful, let alone a net benefit. For the Ted Bundys, psychiatric care seems more appropriate.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:21 am

Andrew Lackey : mentally ill killer executed.

http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.co.uk/ ... l?spref=tw

Alabama prison doctors currently are treating Mr. Lackey with multiple psychotropic medications and his mental illness is longstanding. His mother testified at trial that he "lives in Andrew land," that he does not fully understand "what is really going on," and that there has been "something wrong" with him since he was an infant.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Leone » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:53 am

The U.S. reinstated the Death Penalty just after the end of the Vietnam War, when the body-bags finally stopped coming home.
Is there some innate primitive impulse in the U.S. to offer a blood sacrifice to keep them "safe" from harm? Is this what cynical politicians exploit for votes?

I lived in East Texas for a while, and almost everyone I met was warm, friendly, and in favour of the death penalty. Many took offence at what they perceived to be "outside" criticism.
Some naively even tried to convert me to their brand of "Christianity," the type where neon signs flash "Jesus Saves"in store windows.

They should have added: "But we don't."
Leone
 
Posts: 1445
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:46 am
Location: London

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:00 am

A success! Maybe this should be on a different board as well.

For the last five years, I have been representing an innocent man.

I first met Montez Spradley on Alabama's death row in 2008. From that very first day, he vigorously maintained his innocence of the crime that landed him there: the 2004 murder of a 58-year old grandmother in Birmingham.

Last Friday, Montez accepted a plea deal that guarantees his freedom. It has been a long journey from a trial described as a "miscarriage of justice" to death row to a retrial to last week's plea, but finally, in a matter of years, Montez will be able to leave the horror of the last several years behind him.

How does an innocent man end up on death row? The answer lies with a death penalty system broken beyond repair.


We already knew that both had serious credibility problems, but then we discovered that Montez's ex-girlfriend had been paid more than $10,000 in reward money after she testified against Montez – a fact the prosecution never revealed to Montez's defense team. Then, earlier this year, his ex-girlfriend recanted and admitted that Montez had never confessed to her.


http://www.aclu.org/blog/capital-punish ... -death-row
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Tim33 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:04 pm

ljrobins wrote:I think the death penalty is a barbaric practice, and should be correctly defined as premeditated murder -- not capital punishment. I've grown more and more interested in Norway's approach, and I'm fascinated with their low recidivism rate. I know there are likely some flaws in that system, but rehabilitation rather than "punishment" seems a more progressive answer. Tim, one question, about what you wrote:

I say what does it tell of a society that would somewhat condone such behavior by giving them the same punishment as nonviolent offenders such as extreme drug dealers, thieves etc.


Might you (or others) consider that the "punishment" for non-violent offenders is sometimes too extreme, which can make such a comparison to violent offenders in that context flawed? Also, in terms of the US, I don't see DP as being consistently applied. And yes, I know each state is different, but even within a state, who gets DP or who doesn't seems inconsistently applied. And then there is that huge risk of murdering someone who was innocent all along. Not sure the risk of one innocent death is worth it. I also wonder why do we not encourage forgiveness as the road to healing rather than advocating for another person's death as a way to seeking comfort? I must admit I do find that odd. AND, in particular, most people who I see screaming for death seem angry not sitting in peace. That does make me think.

My comments are not a criticism, just raising the question about how we are "taught" to view people who commit (or are convicted) of crimes. Again, I think Norway's approach, or rather point of view, is revealing in contrast to how North American's view perpetrators as scum versus troubled people who require support, discipline, counselling and love (I know that seems trite but for many it's key) to become better human beings. I'm looking at this in the big picture rather than one by one -- as a Ted Bundy can't ever be reformed, but needn't of been killed either. Can we still not learn something from those people? Maybe not, but maybe so. Do we even try? Doesn't mean they should be set free, of course. Just thinking out loud, here, I guess. Will stop now!


Sorry ljrobins, I didn't realize you asked a question. I wasn't ignoring you for almost a month now lol. Let me preface this by saying that I do not have all the answers. There's very few topics and areas in life where I do. I'm certainly not going to pretend I do because I have the anonymity of the internet to hide behind either. It's a complicated subject to me. Far from black and white. The vast majority of us will never experience someone we know or love being murdered, so it's hard for me to understand how I would feel in that scenario. I can realistically envision myself becoming suicidal at the thought of actualy losing my daughter. So for those people that do have this happen, is that not who we should be most concerned with? With their rehabilitaion and yearning for balance? Whether a prisoner who is in for life can ever possibly be rehabilitated is of little concern to me when compared to the family of the victim. Maybe I lack empathy in my heart for the road that brought someone to make a choice like that. Maybe that's my own demon I need to overcome. But it's just too easy to say the DP is wrong when it's not our child that was murdered. With the alternative being a "fair punishment" that consists of making one sit in a jail cell, lifting weights, watching cable TV, drinking toilet beer and smoking cigarettes? When he/she has ruined not only the life they took but often times the lives of the people around the victim also? I can't get on board with that. We have to hold people accountable for their actions at some point. As I said though, I'm against DP due to the uncertainty of it's victims. I'm for it in theory though.

ljrobins wrote:Might you (or others) consider that the "punishment" for non-violent offenders is sometimes too extreme, which can make such a comparison to violent offenders in that context flawed?


To answer your question above. Maybe sometimes it is. But you have to also consider, for instance, how many people a drug dealer is affecting with his/her actions. And the crimes that stem off from those drug habits that they're making possible which usually go unpunished like theft and usually lead to much bigger things. IMO prison is an appropriate place for such behavior and rewarding a murderer with an equal punishment is rather nonsensical to me. I don't think the answer is to lower the consequence for a nonviolent crime, but rather increase it for the violent ones. I'm not a cold hearted person, believe it or not, but I just don't understand the compassion towards murderers. Someone's life is the only thing in this world that we can't duplicate or replace (pending advancements in 3D printing and stem cell research lol). So when someone takes another's life with little concern, I have no problem putting the same value on their life that they put on the one they took.
"It’s not impossible! I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home" - Luke Skywalker
Tim33
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 9:32 am
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:11 pm

Interesting article here: http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... 41041.html

In the 35 years since the U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the use of the death penalty in the United States, Pennsylvania has executed three death row inmates. In that same time, the State has freed double that amount of inmates—six in total—after the prisoners were found to have been wrongfully convicted. Deiter believes Dennis could be number seven.

“They’ve had more people freed from death row as innocent than they’ve had executed; that’s a disturbing ratio. It’s still too early to tell but this might well be the seventh case, which would put Pennsylvania up there with some states with the most wrongful convictions in the country,” Deiter said.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby RoseMontague » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:17 am

I oppose the death penalty, period. Having said that I don't want to be tied to any petition that implies I advocate for a new trial or think people like Jodi Arias and Scott Peterson are innocent.
User avatar
RoseMontague
 
Posts: 3526
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby pmop57 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:44 am

I oppose death penalty and life sentence without parole !
pmop57
 
Posts: 4867
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Luxembourg (Europe)

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Numbers » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:16 am

Of interest:

U.S. Executions, Death Sentences Reach Multiyear Lows
In 2014, 35 People Were Put to Death—The Fewest Since 1994, Report Says
By
Ashby Jones
Dec. 18, 2014 12:09 a.m. ET
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-executi ... reno64-wsj

{excerpts}

The slide in death sentences began alongside a rise in the use of DNA evidence in the 1990s, legal experts said. “For the first time, you had this airtight, scientific evidence cutting down convictions,” said Deborah Denno, a law professor at Fordham University and death-penalty expert.

Also affecting the number of death sentences: the rise in “life-without-parole” penalties, which have been adopted by more than half the states since the 1990s.

Such sentences have presented prosecutors and juries with a viable alternative to the death penalty for particularly violent or heinous crimes.
.....
Thirty-two states currently retain the power to sentence inmates to death.
.....
A Gallup poll released in October, showed that 63% of Americans favor the death penalty for convicted murderers. That level of support has remained steady for the last several years, the survey said.
Expert witness testimony must be the product of reliable principles and methods. {Paraphrase of Fed. Rules of Evidence 702c}
Numbers
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:29 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:20 am

I am against death penalty out of reasons of principles, that may be resumed in essentially two points:

1) since wrongful convictions are a sad reality, a judicial system routinely producing them (i.e. every judicial system on planet Earth, AFAIK) should not create a situation where error cannot be remedied because the victim of the error is dead (this has already been pointed out);

2) my view of a penalty/penitentiary system is that it must be aimed as much (and indeed even more) to rehabilitation of the inmate as to his/her punishment: obviously death penalty is the negation of any perspective of rehabilitation (with rehabilitation I mean the inmate re-entering society as a free and renewed person, not just something like a religious repentance and redemption).

The second point is also valid against life without parole, or Whole Life Tariff (WLT), as it is called in the UK.

I agree with a 2013 ruling by the Court's Grand Chamber of the ECHR (a sort of United Sections of the ECHR) establishing that there must be a mechanism at least theoreticaly providing the possibility of revision for any sentence (this of course is also an implicit objection of principle to the death penalty).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10168351/Jeremy-Bamber-wins-human-rights-victory-over-life-means-life-sentences.html
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Desert Fox » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:41 pm

I was listening to "The Generation Why Podcast" and they had two people on their, one who was against the Death Penalty and the other who was for it. The one who was for it brought up closure for the family and the person who was against it did not contest it.

I am pretty sure she is pro death penalty but Kelly Siegler, on an episode of Cold Justice, was talking to the family of a victim and spoke that often family members do not find peace even once the person convicted is executed. She probably did not realize that she was actually arguing against the death penalty however.
User avatar
Desert Fox
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:52 am

Connecticut Supreme Court says the death penalty is unconstitutional and bans executions for inmates on death row

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... death-row/
User avatar
Desert Fox
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:43 am

Desert Fox wrote:Connecticut Supreme Court says the death penalty is unconstitutional and bans executions for inmates on death row

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... death-row/


Very good: one more state in the right league!
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Desert Fox » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:03 am

This relates to another discussion. On the comment thread on a the Generation Why Podcast, there is one poster who seems to take a positive glee at the idea of executing him. To me, that pleasure of executing somebody is a real problem.

I used to be pro death penalty. I was on the just barely side with concerns about executing the innocent. This was long before I knew actually how many problems there were as well. The thing is that I considered it like putting to sleep a rabid dog. It was something that had to be done but one should take no pleasure with it.

I have heard the term "closure" used but the person is in prison and they no longer pose a danger to society.
User avatar
Desert Fox
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:44 am


Richard Glossip's attorneys admit they are feeling the pressure. With just nine days until his scheduled execution Glossip's attorneys are frantically working to save his life.

“I don’t even want to think about this execution going through, I can’t,” Glossip’s attorney Don Knight said.
Knight is one of three attorneys from across the country working pro bono to try and save Richard Glossip's life.
Gov. Mary Fallin said the execution will go forward in nine days unless she is presented with new information in the case.

Knight and defense investigators are currently in Oklahoma looking for that new evidence.

Knight is from Colorado and said he plans to be in Oklahoma up until the execution date interviewing witnesses connected 1997 murder of Barry Van Treese.

“What we have been finding in the course of our investigation is many key players have never been talked to by any defense lawyer at all or any defense investigator, which is stunning since there have been two trials in this case,” Knight said.

Glossip's attorneys are also looking for information from someone who did time with Justin Sneed. Sneed testified Glossip masterminded the murder. “If they would come forward and say let me tell you about something Justin Sneed has said, something that I overheard or that he said to me or something a friend told me he said about this situation that doesn’t go along with this idea that Richard Glossip is guilty,” Knight said.

Knight said Glossip's legal team has not met yet with Fallin to discuss the case, but hope to before the execution.

“She seems to be a substantive person so I think we need to respect that and come to her when we are absolutely ready to give her the information that we think gives her the ammunition she needs to give us the 60 say stay," Knight said.

With the world now watching what happens in this case, it's up largely to Oklahomans to put pressure on the governor to issue the 60 day stay, Knight said.
“When the rest of the world is looking at a state that is about ready to kill an innocent man, it really should make all Oklahomans pause and say ‘Do we want that? Why are we doing this to ourselves?’ Only Oklahomans can stop this,” Knight said.


http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=299 ... tId=112032
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby roteoctober » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:57 pm

I hope Oklahomans will listen ...
roteoctober
Tech Director
 
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:01 pm
Location: Turin - Italy

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:32 pm

roteoctober wrote:I hope Oklahomans will listen ...


I hope so as well.

Richard Branson and Amnesty International have joined the campaign to save Richard Glossip.

It has also been highlighted today by the Innocence Project and The Marshall Project.

I have been campaigning since January. My summary for today, addressed to Governor Mary Fallin:

Governor Mary Fallin, to sum up:

The death penalty "system" is proven to have failed in excess of 150 times, including in YOUR State.

In the case of Richard Glossip:

(1) The State of Oklahoma failed, by it's own admission, to give Richard Glossip a fair trial initially.

(2) The second trial could not be fair, because the passing of years means that memories fade.

(3) Justin Sneed's story was evidently false, as a witness in the room next door heard voices just prior to the murder.

(4) The existence of blue dyed money in the trunk of Barry Van Treese's car was hidden from the jury. That is an obvious violation of Richard Glossip's rights.

(5) It is obvious that Richard's public defenders at the second trial were incompetent ( perhaps even deliberately so ), in failing to properly impeach Justin Sneed.

(6) Richard Glossip's public defenders failed to investigate, failed to even interview key players.

(7) The State's own appeal court was NOT unanimous on whether the second trial was fair.

(8) The vast majority of the public, more than two hundred thousand people, are calling on you to issue a stay.

Do you really want to kill Richard Glossip?

Listen to reason!

References

1. From http://m.news9.com/story.aspx?story=299 ... tId=112032

Quote

“What we have been finding in the course of our investigation is many key players have never been talked to by any defense lawyer at all or any defense investigator, which is stunning since there have been two trials in this case,” Knight said.

End Quote

2. From Transcript summary and commentary written by Mr. Glossip’s Innocence Legal Defense Team.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-QKw1 ... x1ZVE/view
[ http://tinyurl.com/When8IsEnough ]

Quote

John Prittie was staying in room 103, a room that shared a wall with the scene of the murder. At trial, Mr. Prittie testified that he “heard an argument...some muffled arguing or some type of discussion going on.” It was “somewhat” loud. He testified that there was “...more than one person” involved and that there were “....male and female voices that I thought I heard too.”

Mr. Prittie then testified that, after he heard the voices, he heard “objects hitting the ground,” “metallic sounds,” and “possibly glass breaking.” He said he then noticed that things got quiet, only to begin again with “more of the arguing, more of the same.” According to Mr. Prittie, the noise stopped shortly thereafter. (May 14, 2004, pg. 155-158)

End Quote

3. From http://www.okcfox.com/story/29537690/ne ... -innocence

Quote

In addition, the prosecution’s theory was the murder was motivated by money. However Sneed would eventually testify he took $4,000 from Van Treese after the murder. That was money Glossip had already turned over to Van Treese from motel receipts the day before. When investigators found Van Treese’s car, there were thousands of dollars left untouched in the trunk. “One wonders,” Knight said, “If robbery was the motive, how did that money not get picked up and what was money $23,100 doing in Barry Van Treese's trunk with blue dye on it?” Knight said police never explained in the reports or the trial why some of the money was dyed with a color common to dye packs used to deter thefts of money from banks.

End Quote

4. From http://city-sentinel.com/2015/09/a-summ ... is-enough/

Quote

In August 2015, an investigator working for Mr. Glossip’s defense team talked with Justin Sneed’s mother. In this interview, his mother stated that in January 1997, just a few days after he was arrested, Justin Sneed wrote a letter to her from the jail. In this letter to his mother Justin talked about being involved in the murder and that there were others involved as well. According to his mother, Justin wrote in the letter, “You won’t believe who!”

His mother told the investigator that in the letter Justin made it sound like there were really powerful and important people involved in this crime and that his mother wondered at the time, “How high up does this go?” His mother told the investigator that she continues to believe there were other people involved in the murder.

End Quote

5. From https://www.facebook.com/notes/richard- ... 1333418724

Quote

Silas Lyman and Wayne Woodyard, apparently decided not to aggressively challenge Sneed, whom Burch calls the “defense’s star witness,” during cross examination. They also failed to introduce the confession video into evidence and made only ham-handed attempts at cross examination.

End Quote
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Numbers » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:28 am

A December 15, 2015 article in the Washington Post reports that, according to two different polls, fewer Americans support the death penalty now than in 1994-1996. However, a majority still back the death penalty when asked about it in isolation. Another poll, however, found that more Americans now support a sentence of life in prison rather than the death penalty when given those two as the alternatives.

In 1996, nearly four out of five Americans (78 percent) said they supported the death penalty, the Pew Research Center reported, but that number fell to 56 percent earlier this year. A Gallup poll released last month said that 61 percent of Americans supported the death penalty, down from 80 percent in 1994.

[Americans also largely agree that an innocent person can be put to death under the current system]

Another poll, though, found that when given the choice between life in prison without parole or a death sentence — rather than simply being asked if they supported or opposed the death penalty — a majority of Americans said they supported life imprisonment (52 percent) rather than death sentences (47 percent), the Public Religion Research Institute reported last month.


Source:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... n-decades/
Expert witness testimony must be the product of reliable principles and methods. {Paraphrase of Fed. Rules of Evidence 702c}
Numbers
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:29 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Samantha » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:32 pm

Memphis Police Department an former employees served as good inside sources, Marvin Chatman Brenda
Cmpbell Tami Little employees
from the force who was making threats and life bodily terrorists

> to the borrowers and fraud victims lives keeping the victims isolated and under their control. Cited and would like see these individuals and
criminals to brought to justice requesting federal warrants pending federal investigation. If Raymond Austin Joshua Austin and his biological family members didn’t get accomplish their mission or someone posed a threat they are going to be killed and are murdered
and murders are orchestrated by the Raymond Austin
Joshua Austin and his numerous conspirators.nThe members have committed murder and
guilty of accessory to murders Shelby County
Memphis Tn and conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracies, extortion, federal
funds,

> money laundering, Violations of 18 USC fraud codes and responsible for

> conspirator along with of Don Smith of Memphis Tn Shelby County Tn Claude Smith III Jamberlyn Voss Anthony McGhee Lillie Bell Chatman Denitra Chatman Ira Chatman Ira Morgan Liz Marcus Payne and girlfriend, Sheila Austin Joyce Austin Bettye Austin who have formed allies with street gangs to commit this crimes with street gangs Vice Lords, Fam Mobs, Indiana block gang to commit killings Murders fraud

> leading double lives, one
life as pastors

> and other As a

> pastor and religious leader another as an organized criminal committing fraud and isolating and
torture crimes tieing and bounding women keeping them isolated from Family and friends pounding the women to
head and brain for years at a time and tieing and bounding the young women to their Vaginas mutilating their bodies and organs
damaging genital organ's and skin the major
organ of the body and cranium skull and the brain maiming the
victims for life. murder, attempted murder, drug dealing, vandalism, severe cases of fraud, aggravated
criminal harassment and homicidal assault with intent to murder and attempted murder causing great bodily harm and injur
Samantha
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby geebee2 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:54 pm

Richard Masterson is due to be executed on January 20. His lawyers say he is innocent.

I heard about the case on December 30, I have created a petition which has 399 signatures as I write : https://www.change.org/p/pardon-wrongly ... -masterson

A copy of a petition filed Jan 5 is here : https://wronglyconvictedgroup.files.wor ... _final.pdf

Please take a look, thanks.
User avatar
geebee2
 
Posts: 5159
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Gloucester, United Kingdom

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Desert Fox » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:54 am

At least his lawyer does not seem to be giving up. . . It is Texas though.
User avatar
Desert Fox
 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:50 pm

Re: Death Penalty Discussion

Postby Sinsaint » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:30 am

Desert Fox wrote:At least his lawyer does not seem to be giving up. . . It is Texas though.


Texas enjoys killing off their mistakes. Just how it is down there.
Sinsaint
 
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:28 pm


Return to The Death Penalty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests